[baliblaster]

AK ALL THE WAY! You can always store your AK in a mudhole for a week,pull it out,shake it off and shoot the crap out of it.Try that with an AR15.I sold my AR and kept the AK47 but recently i have been wanting an AK74 to go with it.

 

[redlegagent]

AK ALL THE WAY! You can always store your AK in a mudhole for a week,pull it out,shake it off and shoot the crap out of it.

You may even hit something with it.

Seriously though, just keep this in mind. Do you reload?? I ask that because if you look around you'll see that the majority of AK ammo (7.62x39mm and 5.45x39mm) is imported!! You may have a few spam cases holed up but when that's gone - now what?? The government can stop importation of ammunition in a heart beat. Look at the .223/5.56mm - it can be found in stores, in police stations, national guard armories, military bases, etc. - there are literally billions of rounds of it out there. When you run out of ammo - enjoy your "store your AK in a mudhole for a week,pull it out,shake it off and shoot the crap out of it" door stop. :bthumb:

 

[noremf]

If the choice is only between those 2!

Used both in Nam. Threw the AR in the river. If the SHTF you are gonna have a lot more to worry about than what rifle you have or how much ammo. A simple cold in that scenario will kill you, maybe slower, but just as dead.

noremf(George)
5th Spec Forces MACV SOG, Phoenix Program

Look up what a Remf is and put the word "no" in front of it.

 

[hogleg]

If the choice is only between those 2!

Used both in Nam. Threw the AR in the river. If the SHTF you are gonna have a lot more to worry about than what rifle you have. A simple cold in that scenario will kill you, maybe slower, but just as dead.

noremf(George)
5th Spec Forces MACV SOG, Phoenix Program

Look up what a Remf is and put the word "no" in front of it.

You can thank the REMFs for your ammo, fuel, food, and evac if you required evac, and even for the recovery of your compatriots' remains decades later.

 

[noremf]

remf's

You can thank the REMFs for your ammo, fuel, food, and evac if you required evac, and even for the recovery of your compatriots' remains decades later.

Maybe we a different understanding of what REMF stands for and who it applies to. The "operative words" are the MF which stands for Mother and I will leave the last one to your imagination.

I never heard, and maybe this has changed over the years, anyone that was at the pointy end of the spear, call any of the people you describe as a REMF except one who was a bird colonel in supply that decided that the troops in the bush were using too much toilet paper. Somebody blew up his jeep and right after that he got transfered back to the states.

Last reunion we had in 2010 at Bragg, the defintion seemed to be the same with the Middle East troops as it was with the Viet Nam troops.

noremf(George)

 

[redlegagent]

A simple cold in that scenario will kill you, maybe slower, but just as dead.

Yet mankind had managed to survive millennia without antibiotics etc. A little sunshine, fresh air, something to eat occasionally with some reasonably clean water to drink and you'll go far. Don't forget to bath periodically as good hygiene is the most important thing you can do to stave off illness. :bthumb:

 

[hogleg]

Maybe we a different understanding of what REMF stands for and who it applies to. The "operative words" are the MF which stands for Mother and I will leave the last one to your imagination.

I never heard, and maybe this has changed over the years, anyone that was at the pointy end of the spear, call any of the people you describe as a REMF except one who was a bird colonel in supply that decided that the troops in the bush were using too much toilet paper. Somebody blew up his jeep and right after that he got transfered back to the states.

Last reunion we had in 2010 at Bragg, the defintion seemed to be the same with the Middle East troops as it was with the Viet Nam troops.

noremf(George)

I've heard plenty of people tooting their non-remfness call those REMFs. It's the meaning of the derogatory term.

 

[1ShotKill]

I own several AR's early 70's to a bunch I built from scratch recently.... not even closed to what I would grab if the SHTF ....

A small reliable bolt action .22 with a few bricks of ammo and a patchworm

Great to gather food and quiet. If this is used in life or death situation I really don't care if I maim someone or if the end comes quick....

 

[age one]

first a few things no one wants to admit.

AK's are slightly more accurate they anyone wants to admit (especially 5.45)

AR's are more reliable then anyone wants to admit (if you don't get bottom of the barrel, so to speak)

now. if you plan on getting something your never going to have to mess with, you just want to shoot the hell out of it and never do any maintenance... the AK is probably better.

if you want something thats much more versatile, lends itself well to a giant selection of after market of parts, can be modified to fire a high variety of calibers, and can be made very accurate the AR.

my SHTF rifle is my 9mm AR... 9mm is pretty much everywhere, out of a rifle its a sufficient defensive round, accuracy is also sufficient, its enough power for small game, its reliable and simple (I'd say even simpler then a AK).

while I prefer my AR's.. I don't mind AK's.. I'm considering built a AK from flat, possibly a AK pistol just for fun

 

[noremf]

Remf's

I've heard plenty of people tooting their non-remfness call those REMFs. It's the meaning of the derogatory term.

Not me friend or any of the combat veterans I know or have met. Heard some of the guys in a combat zone say that but they were not combat vets. They normally got lots of "arnold" stories though.

Anybody that was the pointy end of the spear knew that without the shaft the spear did not even make a good knife and it takes a whole lot more people to be the shaft than it does to be the pointy end.

THOSE people you mention, IMO haven't got a clue but this portion of the thread is off the subject so I have no further comments.

noremf(George)

 

[timberbeast]

AK's are slightly more accurate they anyone wants to admit (especially 5.45)

AR's are more reliable then anyone wants to admit (if you don't get bottom of the barrel, so to speak)

now. if you plan on getting something your never going to have to mess with, you just want to shoot the hell out of it and never do any maintenance... the AK is probably better.

if you want something thats much more versatile, lends itself well to a giant selection of after market of parts, can be modified to fire a high variety of calibers, and can be made very accurate the AR.

A lot of truth in these statements.

I think I'd stick with an AR just for the parts and cheaper ammo. While the SHTF scenario is one we all consider, 99.9% of us will just shoot the gun for fun. If you are hunting, then you might want an AR and get a 5.56 upper and a 308 upper for hunting.

 

[Mr GAP]

Anyone watch Doomsday Preppers?

I think this is high comedy. Not because the people are trying to get prepared , but in the way it is presented by Nat Geo.

 

[Model 52]

One of the things I like(d) most about this site was the relative lack of SHTF threads. Nothing lasts forever.

I agreed completely that you will have a lot more important things to worry about than whether you have an AK or an AR in the generic SHTF situation.

But just to play the stupid game...

In the short term (flood natural, hurricane, <insert your favorite natural disaster here>) all you need is enough ammo on hand in the event social disorder and unrest breaks out in the period of time until order can be restored. You don't even need to go crazy here - just enough to stack up a berm of dead bodies around your house even in a worst case, never gonna happen scenario.

If your personal SHTF wet dream is an apocalyptic end of society as we know it scenario, then eventually you are going to be running out of ammo and scrounging u something else. Odds are you'll pry something you like a whole lot better and/or can find ammo for out of someone else's cold dead hands, so don't sweat it. As noted above, you'll have a lot more serious problems to worry about.

Personally, I have both Aks and ARs but not for SHTF reasons. In the event a SHTF did occur, between the AKs and ARs the odds are with the ARs for ammo availability as an AR with a .22LR conversion kit can tap into the single most available round out there - the .22LR.

More to the point, the .22LR is a lot quieter than the 5.56, 7.62 or 5.45 rounds and won't attract zombies or post apocalyptic nuclear mutants from the next county if I shoot a tree rat for food.

 

[redlegagent]

Not me friend or any of the combat veterans I know or have met. Heard some of the guys in a combat zone say that but they were not combat vets. They normally got lots of "arnold" stories though.

Anybody that was the pointy end of the spear knew that without the shaft the spear did not even make a good knife and it takes a whole lot more people to be the shaft than it does to be the pointy end.

THOSE people you mention, IMO haven't got a clue but this portion of the thread is off the subject so I have no further comments.

noremf(George)

I don't see "I was there....." as anything more than anecdotal tales. For 50 years people have dissed the AR/M-16/4 platforms - yet they remain. For every vet that "hates it" - you can find ones that loved it. The reality is there is no "perfect" weapon - all have pluses and minuses - so it comes down to merely personal preference. As a side, my only heart burn with the .22lr for survival is it can be a little "light" for predators if you encounter them - say cougars or bears etc. :bthumb:

 

[Airguy]

I find these SHTF topics interesting because 40 years ago I had the same converstion with a brother-in-law who owned a small sheep farm in eastern Conn.

After all the riots shown on TV in the late 60's and early 70's, he said that he kept a 22mag revolver for, "When the hoards come poring out of the city".

In all the years I knew him, he only used that gun to put down one caff and a bunch of lambs.

However, his area was overrun by "hoards from the city",...... but they were all Yuppies - like him, wanting to raise their kids in the country. Those "hoards" drove up the property values and he made out very nicely when he retired and sold the place.

Paul

 

[Model 52]

I don't see "I was there....." as anything more than anecdotal tales. For 50 years people have dissed the AR/M-16/4 platforms - yet they remain. For every vet that "hates it" - you can find ones that loved it. The reality is there is no "perfect" weapon - all have pluses and minuses - so it comes down to merely personal preference.

I was very pro M14 coming into the military, even though it was already long gone for anything other than ceremonial duty and match shooting, but the M16A1 grew on me. It was light, very handy, accurate enough to do the job out to 350m and reliable, although my time with it (mid 80s) came long after the bugs and ammo issues with it were resolved.

In terms of time in service, the '03 Springfield saw regular use from 1905 through 1944-45, giving it a fairly solid 40 year career even though the M1 Garand began replacing it around 1937. The Garand hung around until about 1964 (a 27 year career) while the M14 was a standard service rifle from 1959-1970 (only 11 years).

In contrast the M16 in it's various iterations has seen service from 1963 to the present - 49 years and counting, making it by at least a decade, the longest lived service rifle in US history since the Brown Bess Musket.

At this point I own more ARs than any other single type - a varmint platform, an SP1, an M16A1 clone and XM-177E1 clone, a 16"carbine, an M4gery and a dedicated .22LR - and I no longer own an M1, M1A or M14, so that says a lot.

 

[age one]

A lot of truth in these statements.

I think I'd stick with an AR just for the parts and cheaper ammo. While the SHTF scenario is one we all consider, 99.9% of us will just shoot the gun for fun. If you are hunting, then you might want an AR and get a 5.56 upper and a 308 upper for hunting.

well, 308 would require a AR-10.

but you could get a .300 blackout. its supposed to perform as well or better then 30-30 and I understand it suppresses very well.

 

[Old Dutch]

Hi George,

I get tickled reading about this topic from those that have never served but are experts on military subjects. I served in Vietnam in the field 7 out of 8 months, in country and the rest of my tour of duty in an Army Hospital in Japan as a result of injuries suffered in combat. And, no, I am not a "wanna Be" veteran, my 40% disability says so. I was a Marine "Nail Grunt" where most of the duties were road clearing operations or mine (IED) sweeps, back in the day. Our Battalion took more casualties than any other Marine Engineering unit in the war.

Marines made up only 10% of personnel in country at any given time, but took 25% of the casualties or 1 in 4 names on the wall. That's 2 1/2 times our numbers.

As a small force, we never had enough supplies which included clothing, ammunition and c-rations. We got what we needed by trading captured enemy equipment to the Army or Seabees, so the supply system never reached us or most Marines in general, including our Grunts. We all bought boots and other needed supplies from the local Vietnamese. Give them 5 bucks and your shoe size and presto, you got your new jungle boots the next day at the ville.. Machine gun parts, 105mm howitzers parts and grenades were very hard to get. Try manning an M-60 machine gun with no trigger parts, in a combat zone, and that will tighten up some private body parts. In general, the supply system failed us or the stuff we needed was sold or stolen off the DaNang docks.

I had occasion to later speak to a U.S. Senator about the supply problems and as fate would have it, he launched a Congressional investigation. Hell, I even had my Brother and Father ship me a surplus rain poncho from the States. My flack jacket had the fiber glass panels falling out and I'm in the bush!

I carried the M-14 and the new M-16s were just being issues to the Grunts. From the early reports, the new black rifles were not reliable and several Grunts wanted my rifle in a direct swap. No could do since the rifle was checked out to me. We did not like using AK-47s since their distinct report might bring down friendly fire on us. Still, it was a reliable and respected enemy weapon.

I now have an AK47 and an AR15 carbine, used for fun only, thank goodness. I don't dislike REMFs, but we had to use our wits to survive in the field.

 

[redlegagent]

I was very pro M14 coming into the military, even though it was already long gone for anything other than ceremonial duty and match shooting, but the M16A1 grew on me. It was light, very handy, accurate enough to do the job out to 350m and reliable, although my time with it (mid 80s) came long after the bugs and ammo issues with it were resolved.

In terms of time in service, the '03 Springfield saw regular use from 1905 through 1944-45, giving it a fairly solid 40 year career even though the M1 Garand began replacing it around 1937. The Garand hung around until about 1964 (a 27 year career) while the M14 was a standard service rifle from 1959-1970 (only 11 years).

In contrast the M16 in it's various iterations has seen service from 1963 to the present - 49 years and counting, making it by at least a decade, the longest lived service rifle in US history since the Brown Bess Musket.

At this point I own more ARs than any other single type - a varmint platform, an SP1, an M16A1 clone and XM-177E1 clone, a 16"carbine, an M4gery and a dedicated .22LR - and I no longer own an M1, M1A or M14, so that says a lot.

My dad was a marine in WWII. He hated the Springfield, the Riesing SMG, and the M-1 carbine. He loved the Garand - minus "M-1 thumb" - as well as the Thompson SMG. In later years, he liked the M-16. Some Nam vets hate the M-16 - fine. Others liked it - my brother being one. He was Infantry/Airborne/Ranger - he served as a fire team leader in Echo Recon 2/1 Inf. 196th Inf Bde - the "Burning Rope". He carried an M-16A1. He used to quip - "1 bullet - 1 kill: 27 cents plus tax". I shot the AKM and AK-74 in the Army and mostly carried an M-16A1 or M-60 GPM. Everyone has different experiences. I found the AK's to be clunky, heavy, and inaccurate. My brother said they used to carry 20 magazines on patrol - along with 100lbs of other crap. That's not practical with an M-14. I have a M1A as well as AR etc. I would not want to be jumping thru a window with an M-14.