[zukiphile]

I think that you might be my friend.

I am retired so don't have regular access to a machine shop like I did when working. I do miss making chips fly.

Zuk, I think it is time for you to jump into the (machining) waters here. I know it's KILLIN' you not to be able to machine stuff for yourself

I have a lot of respect for people who can work blades and lathes and drills and chisels for years and still have two working eyes and ten fingers.

As Harry Callahan noted in Magnum Force, a man's got to know his limitations.

 

[Arrowhead]

Christ on a cracker, am I the only guy in this thread who isn't a machinist?

No not at all. I play around at being one and can actually make something simple now and then that works but a real, make a living at it, machinest, not even close.

I do enjoy watching the pro's on youtube now and then.

 

[12Bravo]

I would still be working if I didn't have to retire early due to health issues.

And yes I still have all ten fingers and both eyes work . Though I do have to wear bifocals now due to age.

 

[superdave001]

The only drawback for me is the magazines are from Black Dog and require some tuning. They do not make a short magazine, only the 30 round size.
Chris

If you want 15 round mags, 2A Armament used to sell rebranded Black Dogs. I have 5 of them. They are, however, different in that the follower is captured and won't come out for cleaning. Never had any issues with them - they work!

 

[LeShaghal]

Accuracy speaks

did some digging in old articles and here are Some photos of the AS conversion that mated the rails directly to the barrel sans-collar, a necessity for max accuracy. OF the systems they offered (around the same Douglas barrel used in the the CLE 261 kits) the 261 was the standout for accuracy. It survived as the choice for Nat-Match training and the others wen the way of the Dodo; ah-la Natural Selection.

Below find an except of the AS Advert and some Ciener/Atchisson/Spikes/Cmmg/etc. Kit

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[TMW99577]

I don't think whether the rails mount to a collar or directly to the barrel makes a difference. My Kidd 10/22s don't have rails that mount to the barrel and I guarantee they will outshoot any .22 AR conversion ever made. That said, my AR22 is for fun, not paper punching. If I want to make itty bitty groups on paper, I've got an Anschutz for that.

 

[Erik72]

LS - I am unable to view the attachments. All I see are dashed lines.

 

[LeShaghal]

Less than insightful, and off topic

I don't think whether the rails mount to a collar or directly to the barrel makes a difference. My Kidd 10/22s don't have rails that mount to the barrel and I guarantee they will outshoot any .22 AR conversion ever made. That said, my AR22 is for fun, not paper punching. If I want to make itty bitty groups on paper, I've got an Anschutz for that.

I hesitate to dignify this with a response but here goes:

The 10/22's architecture has the barrel tenon directly mounted to the barrel, so yes the ways on which the bolt glides are in fact mounted to the the barrel directly and without an intermediary....insofar as a True KIDD supergrade lengthens said tenon interface, eliminates the Ruger barrel wedge, and tightens the tolerances at that joint considerably...all with the aim of increasing repeatability and concentricity of the interface.

(I'd credit these changes to KIDD but, at its core, a Super-Grade is a Walther GSP carbine in 10/22 clothing.)

As to your KIDD being more accurate than ANY .22 AR: Care to make a wager?

 

[TMW99577]

I hesitate to dignify this with a response but here goes:

The 10/22's architecture has the barrel tenon directly mounted to the barrel, so yes the ways on which the bolt glides are in fact mounted to the the barrel directly and without an intermediary....insofar as a True KIDD supergrade lengthens said tenon interface, eliminates the Ruger barrel wedge, and tightens the tolerances at that joint considerably...all with the aim of increasing repeatability and concentricity of the interface.

(I'd credit these changes to KIDD but, at its core, a Super-Grade is a Walther GSP carbine in 10/22 clothing.)

As to your KIDD being more accurate than ANY .22 AR: Care to make a wager?

Here are some 5-shot 50 yard groups. Not a Supergrade. Just a Kidd Classic receiver with a Lilja barrel. Is Accuracy Speaks still around, or did they go out of business?

 

[Erik72]

Is Accuracy Speaks still around, or did they go out of business?

They're still around but there's no affiliation with Derek Martin and they no longer build the AR22s. Just a gunsmith shop in AZ.

 

[TMW99577]

The 10/22's architecture has the barrel tenon directly mounted to the barrel, so yes the ways on which the bolt glides are in fact mounted to the the barrel directly and without an intermediary.

The barrel tenon on my Lothar Walther AR22 barrel is mounted directly to the barrel also, and there are no rails mounted to to the barrel "directly and without an intermediary" on a 10/22. The only thing that holds the bolt against the chamber on both designs is the pressure of the recoil spring, so if the bolt is square to the chamber, whether or not the bolt rides on rails that are attached to the barrel is irrelevant, and the CMMG collar does not have any impact on the Lothar Walther chamber. It could impact headspace if not adjusted properly, but that is an installation issue, not a design issue.

I do have a question, though. On the CMMG setup, the collar rotates and locks into the bolt rails. How is that accomplished on a system where the rails fit directly onto the barrel? It seems all that you could do is push them in directly in a slot without being able to rotate and lock them in. I can't see where that would add any benefit over the collar system. With the CMMG system and using a pressure plug, the collar remains firmly in place, and in fact, the ball detent holds things in place enough on its own that it takes a firm tug to pull the assembly out the back of the receiver.

 

[Erik72]

did some digging in old articles and here are Some photos of the AS conversion that mated the rails directly to the barrel sans-collar, a necessity for max accuracy.

That's what Keystone Accuracy Does. Here's a picture of the barrel and shown installed in my upper receiver.

Here are a couple pictures of the tango CMMG interface as well. This stuff fascinates me....sorry for continuing "drifting" this thread. I think we answered the OPs original question. I am curious to know wat direction he chooses though.

 

[Erik72]

Pics

Pics referenced in post above

 

[zukiphile]

Here are a couple pictures of the tango CMMG interface as well. This stuff fascinates me....sorry for continuing "drifting" this thread.

I'll take the opportunity of the drift and your pictures to address an evergreen issue: a belief that the collar on a CMMG BCG floats or is pulled off the barrel shank by the cycling of the bolt.

If you remove everything from your receiver extension, close the rifle and draw the bolt all the way back, and your collar is still in its forward position, your cycling rifle isn't making your collar float. None of the rearward force of the cycling bolt can move the frame enough for the carrier rail hooks to pull the collar backward.

Even without the detent, the collar in the closed rifle functions as a spacer.*

Is your collar out of spec? Possibly. CMMG's game of guess the length introduces a variable, but once you've solved that, there appears to be no way for a collar to interfere with the accuracy of an otherwise accurate barrel.

__________________
*Of course, once your rifle is open, there's the issue of how the BCG recoil spring is to be kept compressed, which the collar addresses.

 

[Triggershoe]

Pics referenced in post above

Erik72-- Thanks for those pics. Regarding the now extinct CMMG Tango units, does anyone have any pics of exactly how the "locking piece" (the thingy that looks like the front of a centerfire AR bolt) is held/attached to the collar? That piece has to be able to rotate slightly in order to engage the barrel extension "lugs". Just curious about the attachment method.

 

[zukiphile]

The same as an AR barrel extension. Imagine your dedicated 22lr barrel, with an AR15 barrel extension screwed onto it. The faux bolt collar served approximately the same function as the detent on the current collar.

 

[Triggershoe]

The same as an AR barrel extension. Imagine your dedicated 22lr barrel, with an AR15 barrel extension screwed onto it. The faux bolt collar served approximately the same function as the detent on the current collar.

Zuk, I got that... But exactly HOW does the "locking" part attach (that is, the part that has the "male" part of the locking lugs) to the collar itself? It has to be able to slightly rotate (lock) into the barrel extension independently of the collar, but yet still be mechanically attached TO the collar in some fashion, right? I'm guessing something along the lines of the now discontinued CMMG "India" kits?

 

[zukiphile]

Exactly. The Tango looks like the dedicated version of the India.

I found a review of an India upgrade kit. for chamber inserts.

https://www.opticsplanet.com/review...kit/ed466e10-8b37-11e8-a9e8-005056875b91.html

 

[TMW99577]

How is that going to be more accurate than the collar setup?

 

[zukiphile]

How is that going to be more accurate than the collar setup?

Maybe the answer to that question also explains why CMMG didn't pursue it beyond a half dozen examples. I don't doubt that the rotating lock up was expensive to produce, but if it provided repeatable advantage it would have a market amongst those who spend a lot of money for slight improvement. I also have no doubt that the Tango units were accurate, but wonder whether that accuracy might just be attributable to use of a very fine barrel suitable for an upper that is touted as accurate.