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  #1  
Old 10-17-2015, 12:34 AM
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Anschutz Model Lock Times



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Anschutz has promoted the fast lock time of the 54 action. It has been reported to be 1.7 ms., the fastest, according to Anschutz, of any production rifle.

Surprisingly, then, Anschutz gives the lock time of the 1727F Fortner action as 3.5-4.0 ms. This would place it around the middle, or slightly below, of published lock times of centerfire actions. I'm curious about why the lock time of the Fortner action should be that much slower than that of the 54 action.

Can anyone hazard a guess (or better still a rational explanation)?
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Old 10-17-2015, 01:42 AM
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That it has a heavier firing pin, or a weaker spring would be my guess.

Remember the action was designed for winter biathlon, so there may be requirements to deal with the cold that result in a slower lock time.
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Old 10-17-2015, 10:09 AM
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I´ll find one article and post it here. They compare /measure the lock-times in different .22 LR and Anschütz wasn´t at the top. At all.
I need to find the article so give me a while.
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Old 10-17-2015, 11:47 AM
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Slight change in direction but the 788 Rem has long been known to have one of the fastest CF lock times. I would assume the nearly identical 581 to have a very fast lock time.

Also stating the obvious any rifle lock time can be effected by things like heavy oil or grease in cold temps or a dirty or weak mainspring slowing things down. I have changed lock time to a noticeable degree just by changing to a new mainspring.

Seems we are not the only things that slow down with age.
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Old 10-17-2015, 12:48 PM
Sir Ville
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Touche´: But Anschutz is very far from being the "one with the fastest lock time". They did the measurements with proper measurements ( read European metric system) and Anschütz came up prettypetty.
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Old 10-17-2015, 01:02 PM
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I would also point out that locktime is not the only important factor in a precision action. The firing pin energy and resulting consistent ignition also plays a huge role, especially in rimfire accuracy. On the other hand, the relatively lethargic locktime of the Fortner is rather surprising (assuming it's true of course), since firing off hand accurately, while sucking out the bottom of your lungs and slobbering like a moose, would demand fast locktime.

I look forward to Sir Ville's data on rimfire action locktimes.

TBR
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Old 10-17-2015, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
Slight change in direction but the 788 Rem has long been known to have one of the fastest CF lock times. I would assume the nearly identical 581 to have a very fast lock time.
Absolutely right. Stuart Otteson, in The Bolt Action, gives the 788's lock time as 2.2 ms. for the small (.222) action and 2.3 ms. for the medium (.308) action. This puts it 2nd in his chart of 42 centerfire action lock times, tied with the Ithaca (Tikka) LSA-55 action and a scant .1 ms. behind the Texas Magnum action, the latter seeing very limited production. And I've read that the Remington 580-series actions (rimfire versions of the 788 action) were also very fast. Still, the reported lock time for the Anschutz M54 action of 1.7 ms. beats all of the CF actions (at least those examined by Otteson).

As for the M54's lock time and how it compares with those of other rimfire actions, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that some of the limited-production rimfire BR actions, like the Hall, 10X, 2500X, or Stiller, have slightly faster lock times.

Tim Slater's explanation for the relatively-slow lock time of the 1727F action, drawing on the original application of the Fortner action, makes a lot of sense.

Edit: Just ran across this piece by Bart Bobbitt. His reporting of Anschutz lock time looks about right, but the lock times he gives for some other actions (e.g., Springfield, Enfield) seem to be wrong--or at least different from Otteson's values:

http://yarchive.net/gun/rifle/lock_time.html

Last edited by South_Pender; 10-17-2015 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 10-17-2015, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEDDY BEAR RAT View Post
I would also point out that locktime is not the only important factor in a precision action. The firing pin energy and resulting consistent ignition also plays a huge role, especially in rimfire accuracy. On the other hand, the relatively lethargic locktime of the Fortner is rather surprising (assuming it's true of course), since firing off hand accurately, while sucking out the bottom of your lungs and slobbering like a moose, would demand fast locktime.

I look forward to Sir Ville's data on rimfire action locktimes.

TBR
Wish there was a Like Button! I was thinking the same. Slow lock time on biathlon rifle doesn't make sense
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Old 10-17-2015, 07:44 PM
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Unless all these rifle were measured exactly the same way, is any of this relevant?

Just a thought.

I've seen Ancshutz's lock up time for the Fortner, but haven't seen it for the 54.
I'd like to see an Anschutz document stating the speed, preferably one written in this century.

Just starting to look.

Smooth

Last edited by Smoothtrigger; 10-17-2015 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 10-17-2015, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoothtrigger View Post
Unless all these rifle were measured exactly the same way, is any of this relevant?

Just a thought.

I've seen Ancshutz's lock up time for the Fortner, but haven't seen it for the 54.
I'd like to see an Anschutz document stating the speed, preferably one written in this century.

Just starting to look.

Smooth
Smooth, the 1.7 ms. lock time figure for the M54 action has been stated and restated innumerable times. Here's an article in Rifle magazine by Layne Simpson where he states this once again, this time in connection with the 54.18 metallic silhouette rifle (see the second page of the article):

http://www.neonfeather.com/5418/54-1...20Anschutz.PDF

Anschutz themselves have undoubtedly stated this somewhere, but more frequently we see Anschutz referring to their M54 action as having the fastest lock time of any production rifle.

In the following Anschutz piece, the 3.5-4.0 ms. lock time for the 1727F action appears (para. 3):

http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index...uktShow=detail

Edit: Interestingly, Anschutz states: "The shooter thus only needs little time for focussing. With 3.5 to 4 ms also the lock time is extraordinarily short and reached by no other brand." (bolding mine) This statement is obviously incorrect as many actions have a shorter lock time than 3.5-4 ms.

I think we have to assume that Anschutz used the same measurement technique with all of their actions.

I should probably add that lock time is a pretty unimportant factor in benchrest shooting. It does, however, has some relevance in metallic silhouette or 3 position target shooting, and, one would assume, in biathlon, as noted by PWNolan.

Last edited by South_Pender; 10-18-2015 at 01:08 AM.
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Old 10-18-2015, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by South_Pender View Post
I should probably add that lock time is a pretty unimportant factor in benchrest shooting. It does, however, has some relevance in metallic silhouette or 3 position target shooting, and, one would assume, in biathlon, as noted by PWNolan.
I am not a Biathlon competitor, but given the circumstances I would expect the reliability and consistency of ignition would actually be far more important to someone shooting in the Biathlon event, than outright lock time. I would also think that consistency of the lock time would be important too. Relatively speaking the Biathlon target is quite large, as it is a hit/miss situation. The real challenge is hitting it after the skiing when you are breathing hard, and shooting against the clock. I did talk over the shooting needs for Biathlon with the then Rifle Coach of the British team (all from the Army at that time) apparently it's all down to fitness, heart rate recovery time and the ability to control the breathing. Only once you have those aspects nailed does marksmanship start to play an important role.

Alan
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Old 10-18-2015, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BigAl113 View Post
I did talk over the shooting needs for Biathlon with the then Rifle Coach of the British team (all from the Army at that time) apparently it's all down to fitness, heart rate recovery time and the ability to control the breathing. Only once you have those aspects nailed does marksmanship start to play an important role.

Alan
And lock time is tiny compared to basic marksmanship. The difference in milliseconds of lock time is a fart in a hurricane. There is way too much good Kentucky bourbon to drink to worry about such things.
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Old 10-18-2015, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by elh0102 View Post
There is way too much good Kentucky bourbon to drink to worry about such things.
Who's worried?

Just noting an oddity in the Fortner action (at least it seems odd to me). Like many on this forum, I'm interested in the technical/engineering details of different actions, and it just seems a little odd to me that Anschutz's Fortner action should differ this much in this way from their M54 action. However, as noted, a lock time of 3.5-4 ms. is acceptable for most shooting applications. After a little digging, I've found the following (although not directly from Anschutz):

54 Action.......Lock Time
1400 series.......2.3 ms.
1800 series.......1.7 ms.
2000 series.......1.5 ms.

I'm not sure how accurate these figures are (although I've now run across them in several sources), but they would make sense, showing Anschutz making the necessary changes (heavier spring, shorter striker-fall, lighter striker, polished and streamlined innards) to make an already very-good action better in this regard. I've also tracked down some data on custom BR actions, most of which advertise fast lock time. However, even the excellent 10X action has a lock time of 2.1 ms., slower than the Anschutz 54. From what I can gather, possibly only the Hall, among U.S. custom rimfire actions, with a very light fast striker, rivals the M54 lock time, and may slightly better it. This seems to be the consensus among BR and target shooters, although I haven't found any hard data on the Hall.

In the Remington Rimfire Book, Remington claimed a lock time of 1.4 ms. for its 540-series rimfire target actions. Finally, citing Bart Bobbitt again:

"Paramount actions [a British custom rimfire action] have about a 1.3 ms lock time with their 55-lb. spring driving a light-weight firing pin about one-tenth of an inch to the primer. That's the fastest production lock time for any rifle."

So from everything I've seen so far, the Anschutz M54 (in its various embodiments) is very near the top with respect to this particular action feature. Of course, I haven't found everything out there on this, and it may be that there are some rimfire actions that do better. It might be worth noting that rimfire guru Bill Calfee (in The Art of Rimfire Accuracy) discusses lock time and its importance in rimfire position shooting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elh0102 View Post
The difference in milliseconds of lock time is a fart in a hurricane.
Apparently Anschutz disagrees with this view as they repeatedly stress the lock time of their actions.

But back to the original question: what's with the comparatively sluggish lock time of the 1727F?
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Old 10-18-2015, 08:03 PM
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Nice, but always thought lock times sans other factors were largely Voodoo.

A number of makers (Martini, Valmet) used to brag on their fast lock times, when the real accuracy factor involved was the rifle used a box car axle for a barrel and weighed 16+ pounds, eliminating follow-through errors like a factory test sled.



It's akin to High-Power versus small-bore and air rifle as training vehicles. 3200 fps vice 600 or 1100 covers up a lot of sins in hold and follow-through.

Last edited by Bob Smalser; 10-18-2015 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 10-18-2015, 08:09 PM
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It's the time from sear release to the time a 1070fps bullet leaves the end of a 21 inch barreled biathlon rifle.

I'm completely serious about this. I repeat, seriously I just made this up.

So kidding aside, somethings not right here. They brag about the lock up time in their literature. The firing pin doesn't look heavy, it has a short throw, and a big fat spring. So come on.
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