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Old 07-18-2013, 09:53 PM
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My Crosman MK-177 With Factory Peep Sights and Low-Power Scope



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MK-177 in Black ... My Latest Acquisition


Quote:
Originally Posted by aom22 View Post
Well fellas ... went and dun-did-it ... spur of the moment purchase of a black MK-177.
A couple of days ago, a co-worker that has a part-time job at our Fort Stockton TX 79735 Wal-Mart
notified me a new shipment of air guns had arrived.

After waiting 18-hours, curiosity got the better of me.
Lo and Behold, a black MK-177 - not in tan ... which didn't appeal to me.

Currently, I'm firing the MK using the factory peep sights.
Which are very similar to the peeps that come with my M4-177/M417 except the front sight is taller.
However, the quality seems a little improved.

The stray reflections and fuzzy outline of the early rear sights presented with the M4-177/M417 units
have been reduced - if only slightly.
The dished aperture did not have fuzzy lines or stray reflections present.
However, the second flip-aperture with a flat-face did.

As such, there has been some improvement in production quality as they're manufactured.
However, the factory peep sights can not be considered to be anywhere near match grade.
At best, the factory peeps are adequate for plinking and training young shooters.
For the adult shooter, a set of aftermarket match grade iron sights would be a good enhancement for the MK-177.

Even so, I think the better sight quality helped contributed noticeably to the acceptable accuracy
displayed by my rifle with off-the-shelf Crosman Premier Hollow-Points and Destroyer 7.3gr and 7.9gr pellets.

Of no small matter is the trigger.
The MK trigger is just as good as the M4 trigger.
That is very serviceable for a military style single-stage trigger.
The only fly in the ointment is the very long-travel of the trigger stroke coupled with a slightly vague
let-off point.
Trigger travel is much too long for my preferences.
However, after spending some trigger-time with the MK, my trigger concerns have a tendency
to diminish with use.
But, the most redeeming feature of the trigger is it's good consistency ... very repeatable - just like
the M4's trigger.

After mounting the factory sights, I decided to fire a few fast groups to get-on-paper with the sights.
The improved quality of the sights made sighting-in go very quickly.
Very unexpectedly faster ... I was pleasantly surprised with the results I achieved
Perhaps, my Crosman M4-177/M417 experiences had something to do with this.

Another factor in the ease of shooting the MK ... like most pneumatics ... this rifle is not hold sensitive.
A conventional, light, center-fire rifle hold works well-enough.
Grasp the MK like an AR-15/M16 and you'll do just fine.
Off-Hand Kneeling Position
Factory Peep Sights
Conventional AR-15/M Rifle Hold
Crosman Destroyer EX 7.3g
5-Shot String, 3-Strokes Compression
Quick Shot Sequence at 25 Feet
Gusty Variable Winds

Another characteristic I like better about my MK ... it feels heftier than the M4.
And, what mass there is tends to be biased toward the muzzle.
Establishing a steady hold ... requires much less work.

The over-all feel of the MK stock is one of sturdiness and reasonable rigidity.
The only detectable flex occurs with the pump handle of the compression mechanism.
With the pump arm out-of-the stowed, position some side-to-side movement can be induced.
However, unlike the adjustable stock of the M4 that has too much play and slack, the MK butt-stock
feels comparatively stiff.


One significant item for some persons that could be a major factor in deciding whether to chose an
M4-177 or MK-177 for target shooting.
The MK-177 stock is not adjustable nor are rubber butt-covers of varying thickness available from Crosman.

Moreover, the MK length-of-pull to the trigger is only 12-inches - that's right ... one foot.
Compared to the length-of-pull of 13 1/8-inches of the M4 at full extension measured from the middle of the
sloping butt-plate.
With the additional M4 bonus of being able to collapse to a shorter length(s).
If a marksman likes to use a shooting jacket or a coat during cold weather ... the adjustable
length-of-pull afforded by the M4 could pose a distinct convenience/advantage.

Even with its short length-of-pull I found the MK-177 comfortably easy to shoot with reasonable accuracy.
The over-all length of the MK is shorter than an M4 at full-stock extension by approximately
2-inches ... the MK-177 31 3/4 OAL, M4-177 33 3/4 OAL.

As out-of-the ordinary as the the MK-177 stock appears, it is unexpectedly accommodating.
When shouldered, the rifle falls right into position and is held in-place with a natural touch ... the shape
of the stock and forearm feels surprisingly ... right.
Whatever misgivings you may over the looks of this ACR styled air rifle's appearance .. and I do
have some reservations ... you'd do yourself well to get-over-it.
The MK-177 has better ergo-metrics than the M4-177.



Without cleaning the barrel, I decided to fire-off some shots to get the sights in general alignment.
However, shooting conditions were not ideal.
I had some moderate winds to reckon with.

Take note of the horizontal stringing exhibited in this group.
This is the net result of the light-weight Destroyer EX pellets I've been using and the blowing wind
I was contending with.
These inexpensive little 7.3gr pellets are very wind sensitive but more accurate out of a clean barrel
than their low-cost would belie.
Standing Position
Factory Peep Sights
Forearm Supported by Hand
Hand Contacting Rolled-Up Support Pad
Conventional AR-15/M16 Rifle Hold
Crosman Destroyer EX 7.3g
5-Shot String, 3-Strokes Compression
Quick Shot Sequence at 10-Meters/33-Feet
Gusty Variable Winds

__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 07-27-2013 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:20 PM
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Black Crosman MK-177 Major Sections

The MK-177 stock is vertically split and held together by a large number of small of self-taping
screws - I think.
Even the picatinny rail and pistol grip are split right-down-the-middle with everything held together
using the same very small screw type.
After shooting about a half-tin of Crosman Destroyer EX pellets, accuracy began to inexplicably deteriorate.

I was becoming frustrated and was maneuvering the MK one-handed when I felt the pistol halves shift apart.
It quickly became apparent I needed to check the tightness of all the stock screws.
Then, it dawned on me I had no idea how much torque would be called for.

Using a little common-sense, a soft-touch and a jewelers screw driver to limit applied torque,
I snugged-up all of the screws.
After taking a few shots, accuracy improved.
But, was still lacking.

This is when I realized the shooting conditions had changed ... specifically lightning conditions - it was now
very bright.
As such, the stray reflections coming-off the sights was becoming exasperating.
This is when I decided to apply some lamp black to the sights.
That is poor man's lamp black - candle soot.

In addition to candling the sights, I decided now was a good time to treat the barrel with J-B® NON-EMBEDDING
BORE CLEANING COMPOUND ... twice.
After the JB Bore Cleaner treatment, I further swabbed the barrel out at least six times.
I fired a few seasoning/fouling clips and re-swabbed the barrel with 5-each cleaning patches.
A few 5-shot clips later ... accuracy was back.

This little exercise has caused me to question the method Crosman chose to secure both halves of the
vertically split stock together.
Time and use will tell whether everything holds together satisfactorily - especially, the stability
of the picatinny rail.
Fixed Cheek-piece ... Non-Adjustable

This brings me to a few observations about the pseudo-ACR styled stock of the MK-177.
I'm, really, beginning to like the handling characteristics of the ACR-type stock.
The blocky/boxy look certainly doesn't do justice to the feel of the stock - I like it.

I've picked-up this rifle to handle it ... with my eyes closed.
Were I asked to describe the shape and configuration of the MK I was holding in my hands ... I'd be
hard pressed to accurately explain the contours - wouldn't make sense from a conventional rifle perspective.

One thing that galls me about the MK is the fact the fake detachable box magazine is not detachable - it's
fixed in-position.
In the M4, the magazine is detachable and contains styro-foam with slots or recesses for storage.
It find this to be very useful for extra magazines and the sight tool - easy access.

The MK-177 does have some sectionalized storage in the buttstock.
But, access is not easy ... the buttstock pad must be completely peeled-off for access.
It works - but, I don't like it.
Box Magazine Not Detachable ... Offer No Storage ... Waste of Space and Plastic

Speaking of the buttstock ... it is fixed in all aspects.
The length is not adjustble and the cheek-piece cannot be raised/lowered.
These are serious shortcoming for the adult shooter.

I'm an small man, 5-foot 5-inches, with proportionately short arms.
As such, I can easily adapt to the ... an almost too-short-for-me ... 12-inch length-of-pull.
A full-sized ... shall I say average-sized ... adult may find the the LOP, technically, too short - I would think.
Picatinny Accessory Rails Well-Positioned ... No Provision for Bipod

The next thing that bothers me about he MK ... I don't see a way to attach a conventional bipod.
This little carbine screams for a small bipod and corresponding accessory mount - don't see
how it can be done? ... what a shame!

Even so, the more I shoot the MK-177 ... the more I like ... whatever ... this carbine is about.
Right now, I own an M417 with Leaper's AR15 match sights, an M4-177 with a Leaper's Bug Buster 6X32 AO IR
and the MK-177 that I'm going to mount an fixed 10X SF scope.
Do I need another MK-177?
Well, if my allowance were a little more ... I'd go-out and buy another MK-177 for iron sight/red dot use.
Front Sight Mounted on Pseudo Piston Block ... Front Sight Taller Than M4-177/M417 Sight

Standing Position
Factory Peep Sights
Forearm Supported by Hand
Hand Contacting Rolled-Up Support Pad
Conventional AR-15/M16 Rifle Hold
Crosman Destroyer 7.9g
5-Shot String, 5-Strokes Compression
Quick Shot Sequence at 10-Meters/33-Feet
Gusty Variable Winds

__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 07-27-2013 at 01:16 AM.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:58 PM
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It is a good looking airgun

I like the improved rail design. Black looks better imo too.

What do you think of the pump arm? I've heard it might be a little thinner with a tendency to pinch the the gun upon closing if your grip is too strong.

I would probably hold out for a sale, or maybe the black M4-177 if it goes down further. Nice review and photos as always.

Scratch that, I need to start piecing together a real AR.
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:28 AM
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Potential Pump Arm Issue ... I Keep My Fingers Out of the Way

Quote:
Originally Posted by BerkshireHunter View Post
What do you think of the pump arm?
I've heard it might be a little thinner with a tendency
to pinch the the gun upon closing if your grip is too strong.
The pump arm plastic is a little thin.
And, I suppose if the pump arm were gripped tight enough on closing
there would be a tendency to squeeze / pinch the compression tube shroud.

But, I haven't experienced this condition.
Since I don't grip the pump arm on closing ... I just push with the palm of
my hand in-order to keep my fingers out of the way to keep them from
being caught between the pump arm and compression tube.

The bigger problem I have with the pump arm is a quite loud clack cause
by the pump arm slapping the compression tube shroud - too loud.
The thinness of the pump arm composite material contributes to the
noise level
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 07-20-2013 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:40 AM
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Thanks, great review!
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:15 PM
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MK-177 Factory Semi-Synthetic Sights

For a short time, I've been shooting my MK using the factory peep sights.
I don't intend to to continue using iron sights on my MK.
However, I decided to try-out the factory included sights for the sake of the review.

The Crosman iron sights issued with the MK and M4 suffer similar malady's in the form of
stray reflections and fuzzy outline of the early rear sights as well as the front sight reflecting light as well.

The dished aperture did not suffer as much from fuzzy lines or as many stray reflections present.
Not nearly as much as the second flip-aperture with a flat-face did.

Also, after prolonged shooting, I began to notice the front sight was ghosting.
That is, the post did not provide a distinct silhouette against the target background.
Almost as if a very vague and shadowy double-image was appearing ... then, shifting to a single-image
that was not sharp - weird.
The top of the front sight post was reflecting light and the domed surface the post was fixed-on
were adding the total reflected light that was reaching my shooting eye.
The net effect of all of this ... did not serve to enhance accuracy.

To improve the performance of the sights I took a countersink to break the aperture edges
and ran a toothpick through the peep-holes to clear-out any burrs.

Moreover, I applied some poor man's lamp black.
I took a candlestick and allowed the open-flame to touch the rear peeps, the front post
and front sight protective ears to subdue the reflective spots and give the treated surfaces a black body effect.

This single procedure improved sight performance significantly.
Standing Position
Improved Factory Peep Sights
Forearm Supported by Hand
Hand Contacting Rolled-Up Support Pad
Conventional AR-15/M16 Rifle Hold
Crosman Premier Hollow Point 7.9g
5-Shot String, 5-Strokes Compression
Deliberate Shot Sequence at 10-Meters/33-Feet
Light Variable Winds

Even so, the factory sights do not provide service commensurate to the MK-177's capability.
As such, an adult would do well to purchase some aftermarket match-grade sights to wring-the-most accuracy
from a box-stock MK-177.
Standing Position
Improved Factory Peep Sights
Forearm Supported by Hand
Hand Contacting Rolled-Up Support Pad
Conventional AR-15/M16 Rifle Hold
Crosman Premier Hollow Point 7.9g
5-Shot String, 6-Strokes Compression
Deliberate Shot Sequence at 10-Meters/33-Feet
Light Variable Winds

By the way, the Crosman Premier Hollow Points are not the best pellets for my MK-177.
However, these in-expensive off-the-shelf pellets are good enough for practice and plinking
as the previous targets may attest to.
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 07-27-2013 at 01:18 AM.
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Old 07-26-2013, 12:21 AM
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MK-177 with Leaper's Bug Buster 4X32 AO IR

I became bored shooting my MK-177 with the factory peep sights.
In my opinion, the factory sights would never extract the best accuracy from the carbine.

As such, I decided to mount a low-power, fixed-power scope to make it easier to shoot groups
at close-range ... 10-meters and less.
In an effort to select a few pellet candidates for use at longer range ... 20-yards plus.

The only high-mount I had was a Leaper's off-set unit.
It was intended for use on Weaver specification rails.
However, it worked quite-well on the full-length picatinny rail of the MK-177.

And, if your wondering, did the scope mount re-zero after being removed and re-mounted?
In a word ... NO - it did not.

The following are a few groups I fired with some inexpensive Crosman pellets at 10-meters (33-feet).
Standing Position
Leaper's Bug Buster 4X32 AO IR
Forearm Supported by Hand
Hand Contacting Rolled-Up Support Pad
Conventional AR-15/M16 Rifle Hold
Upper Group: Crosman Premier Hollow-Point 7.9gr
Lower Group: Crosman Premier Silhouette Field Target 7.9gr
5-Shot String, 6-Strokes Compression
Deliberate Shot Sequence at 10-Meters/33-Feet
Gusty Variable Winds
TYPICAL

However, at 20-yards, both Crosman pellets were not grouping consistently.
Usually, a 3-shot or 4-shot group about the size of a nickel would begin to form-up.
However, there would be at least one, if not two, inexplicable flyers that would occur.
The flyers were way-off by nearly an inch ... sometimes - not good.

I went through an assortment of good-quality Crosman pellets, JSB, RWS, H&N and Beeman's.
Unfortunately, none of the pellets were performing better than a nickel at 20-yards.
That is, until I dug-up some Beeman Field Target Silhouette 8.64 gr pellets - that
had shown some promise earlier.

Prior to shooting the FTS pellets - again, I cleaned the barrel two-times.
After the first cleaning, I fired a clip to season and/or foul the barrel.
The target below was the result of a partial clip.
Standing Position
Leaper's Bug Buster 4X32 AO IR
Forearm Fully-Rested on Rolled-Up Support Pad
Conventional AR-15/M16 Rifle Hold
Beeman FTS 8.64gr
4-Shot String, 8-Strokes Compression
Quick Consecutive Fire at 20-Yards
Gusty Variable Winds
Promising Group

Then, I cleaned the barrel again and shot three seasoners/foulers before setting-down
for the next group.

During the last group of the day, I decided to employ some strict springer technique(s)
with emphasis on follow-through.
My last effort(s) at a very slow deliberate string mimicking a springer hold paid-off handsomely.
And, were completely unexpected.
Standing Position
Leaper's Bug Buster 4X32 AO IR
Forearm Fully-Rested on Rolled-Up Support Pad
Spring&Piston Air Rifle Rifle Technique
Disciplined Follow-Though
Beeman FTS 8.64gr
5-Shot String, 8-Strokes Compression
Deliberate Very Slow Fire at 20-Yards
Gusty Variable Winds
UNTYPICAL

Needless to say, I was very, very pleased with this outcome.
And, I decided to call-it-a-day as the sun was beginning to set and the lighting of the target was failing.
So, I didn't try to repeat what I had accomplished.
As the likelihood of doing so was not very probable.

But make no mistake, I realize this one group was/is not typical ... nickel groupings were/are more,
realistically, like-it.
As there had to be a lot-of-luck involved with this accuracy accomplishment of my MK-177.
As soon as I can get-my-hands-on a scope more suitable for the uses I intend for my MK-177 ... I try
to repeat this feat.
But, in-the-mean-time, I won't be holding my breath.

So what have I learned from this exercise?
Follow-through is a very critical aspect of wringing good accuracy from the MK-177.
My MK-177 is very pellet fussy.
The one-right-pellet can yield some outstanding results.
Moreover, J-B® NON-EMBEDDING BORE CLEANING COMPOUND treatment and regularly swabbing
the barrel ... can help accuracy.

Most ammo can provide serviceable accuracy for plinking or informal target practice.
But nothing remarkable for an eighty-four dollar MSP.
A good quality pellet, the right pellet had the capacity of making my flat-black MK-177 sparkle in my eyes.
And, might-be I've found the right pellet for this MK-177 ... ya' think?
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 07-28-2013 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 07-26-2013, 02:31 PM
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JSB Match DIABOLO Pellets at 20-Yards

Some of the pellets that I had good expectations for were the JSB Match Diabolo series.
The following are a few exploratory groups I tried.

The JSB 7.87 pellets performed similar to the Crosman Premier SFT but with fewer flyers.
The CPSFT would group three or four pellets under a dime and for reasons unknown
one or two flyers would follow expanding the group to a nickel or even more.
Standing Position
Leaper's Bug Buster 4X32 AO IR
Forearm Fully-Rested on Rolled-Up Support Pad
Conventional AR-15/M16 Rifle Hold
JSB Exact Express Diabolo 7.87gr
5-Shot String, 8-Strokes Compression
Deliberate Fire at 20-Yards
Gusty Variable Winds
UNTYPICAL ... Promising Group

The JSB 8.44gr pellets performed very well.
But, one thing I noticed with the heavier pellets ... conscious attention
of follow-through was diligently required .
In contrast the JSB 7.87gr pellets seemed more tolerant of inattention.
Standing Position
Leaper's Bug Buster 4X32 AO IR
Forearm Fully-Rested on Rolled-Up Support Pad
Conventional AR-15/M16 Rifle Hold
JSB Exact Diabolo 8.44gr
5-Shot String, 8-Strokes Compression
Deliberate Fire at 20-Yards
Gusty Variable Winds
UNTYPICAL ... Promising Group

Then, I decided to shoot one continuous group using two different pellet weights
to determine
how much the POI of the 7.87gr and 8.44gr varied.
What I observed, the heavier pellets were striking higher.
I had not expected this.
Either way, the two JSB pellets share a POI that are serviceably close.
Standing Position
Leaper's Bug Buster 4X32 AO IR
Forearm Fully-Rested on Rolled-Up Support Pad
Conventional AR-15/M16 Rifle Hold
Upper POI: JSB Exact Diabolo 8.44gr
4-Shot String, 8-Strokes Compression
Lower POI: JSB Exact Express Diabolo 7.87gr
5-Shot String, 8-Strokes Compression
Deliberate Fire at 20-Yards
Gusty Variable Winds
TYPICAL ... Same POA: Two Different Weight Pellets

By the way the JSB Exact RS Diabolo 7.33gr pellets did not perform well
at all.
The groups being developed hovered around the size of a quarter - not usable.
The wind could have been a major factor in the results I was getting.
Or, a different number of compress strokes might yield improved results.
At the time I was shooting, I was pressed, literally, for time ... the sun
was beginning to set.
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 07-26-2013 at 06:08 PM.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:27 PM
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MK-177 Left-Hand Bolt Handle ... Right-Side Clip Feed???

One of the unusual features the MK-177 that holds true to the ACR is the left-hand, left-side bolt handle.
I've seen some comments about the off-side bolt handle ... mostly negative.
As for me, I liked the concept ... since the first time I handled an FN FAL and chambered a round.
Such was the impression the FAL made on me ... that lingers with me - to this day.
At that instant, in my very youthful thinking ... the engineer(s) of the FAL became elevated to
near genius platitudes.

But, I digress, as I've never owned an FAL.
At the time, I was exposed to the Fusil Automático Ligero, I was enamored with the Colt's M16 / Armalite AR-15.
My eyes were only-on the the martial marvel Matty Mattel M16.
As such, the "The right arm of the Free World".[2] managed to escape my grasp.

CROSMAN MK-177 PELLET-BB MULTI-PUMP AIR RIFLE TABLE TOP & SHOOTING REVIEW
However, the same could not be said of the Crosman engineers as the clip-feed is a contrary right-to-left.
Had the MK-177 clip feed from left-to-right ... I would be saying ingenious.
But, I can't because the MK-177 ... doesn't.

Me thinks, the bean counters at Crosman had a major hand in this faulty decision.
But, I can understand, the M4-177/M417 clip that feeds right-to-left and is already in mass production.
Why reinvent-the-clip exclusively for the MK-177 ... wouldn't be very cost-effective - now, would it?
Well, in my eyes this compromise is a major mistake ... ain't customer effective.

CROSMAN MK-177 PELLET-BB MULTI-PUMP AIR RIFLE TABLE TOP & SHOOTING REVIEW
As I like the left-hand bolt actuation ... works for me.
But, inserting the clip by the right-side, I find a bit awkward,
So much so, I normally insert the clip from the left-side and push-feed with my left-hand finger tips.

This isn't inconvenient to do.
But, it certainly would be more ergo-metric if the clips had a left-side finger-hold tab.
Not a big deal, not hard to get used-to.
But, it irks me that the bean counter's at Crosman should hold such sway over engineering.

If proper MK-177 clips become available from Crosman ... I'll buy a bunch.
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 07-28-2013 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 07-27-2013, 07:47 PM
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Duplicating Dime-Sized 5-Shot FTS Group at 20-Yards

I couple of days ago, I shot the target shown below with my MK-177.
But, I didn't make too much of it ... pure luck - I was thinking.

MK-177 with Leaper's Bug Buster 4X32 AO IR
Quote:
Originally Posted by aom22 View Post
During the last group of the day, I decided to employ some strict springer technique(s)
with emphasis on follow-through.
My last effort(s) at a very slow deliberate string mimicking a springer hold paid-off handsomely.
And, were completely unexpected.
Standing Position
Leaper's Bug Buster 4X32 AO IR
Forearm Fully-Rested on Rolled-Up Support Pad
Spring&Piston Air Rifle Rifle Technique
Disciplined Follow-Though
Beeman FTS 8.64gr
5-Shot String, 8-Strokes Compression
Deliberate Very Slow Fire at 20-Yards
Gusty Variable Winds
UNTYPICAL

Needless to say, I was very, very pleased with this outcome.
And, I decided to call-it-a-day as the sun was beginning to set and the lighting of the target was failing.
So, I didn't try to repeat what I had accomplished.
As the likelihood of doing so was not very probable.
That is ... until today.
I had decided to set final rifle/scope zero with the 8.64g FTS pellets.
In the process of doing so, I shot the following group.
Standing Position
Leaper's Bug Buster 4X32 AO IR
Forearm Fully-Rested on Rolled-Up Support Pad
Spring&Piston Air Rifle Rifle Technique
Disciplined Follow-Though
Beeman FTS 8.64gr
5-Shot String, 8-Strokes Compression
Deliberate Very Slow Fire at 20-Yards
Gusty Variable Winds
TYPICAL

As such, I was able to reasonably duplicate the lucky-group I shot previously.
Disproving that my original FTS 5-shot group was a fluke.
So, I'm not holding my breath any longer.

Even with a low-magnification 4-power scope, my out-of-the-box MK-177 is capable of very good accuracy
beyond 10-meters (33-feet).
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W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 07-28-2013 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 07-27-2013, 10:33 PM
Granite3
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Nice write up, sir!

What sort of fps are you getting per pump?

I notice 3 and 5 seem to be your go to number of pumps....
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Old 07-28-2013, 12:18 AM
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Published Velocity of MK-177 Per Reviews ... Compression Strokes by Pellet Weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite3 View Post
What sort of fps are you getting per pump?
I don't know ... haven't bought a chrony - yet.
However, I did find some reviews that included velocity figures.
Actual Velocity: Crosman MK-177 vs M4-177/M417 ... Is MK-177 Significantly Faster? ... aom22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite3 View Post
I notice 3 and 5 seem to be your go to number of pumps....
In my MK-177 with light pellets - less than 7.9gr, I intend to use 6-strokes.
With 7.9gr and greater mass pellets - up to 8.64gr, I will be using 8-strokes.
Any heavier pellets, which I'm very unlikely to use, I'll go with 10-strokes.

I wanted an MK-177 to use heavier pellets than what I use in my M4-177.
My M417/M4-177 are limited to light-weight pellets because of the relatively low-velocity
the M4-series produce.
I purchased an MK-177 to avoid the trouble of enhancing the power capability of my M4's.
Apparently, according to Crosman the MK incorporated a new valve design that improved
the performance of the MK over the M4.

This was to enable me ... at least this was my plan ... to use 7.9gr pellets to better buck
the winds I frequently encounter.
Gusty variable winds are something I must contend with on an almost daily basis.
The MK-177 was to extend the range at which I could effectively engage marauding sparrows
during airy conditions.

Unfortunately, the 7.9gr pellets have not proven to be as accurate at 20-yards as I would like.
However, the 8.64gr FTS have demonstrated to be the most accurate out of my MK.
But, not exactly what I had in-mind or planned for.

As such, I may explore the accuracy that can be had using 7.3gr or other light-weight pellets in my MK.
What I expect is very good accuracy at 10-meters to 15-yards.
But, under windy conditions I don't anticipate the light-weight pellets to return good accuracy
at 20-yards and plus.
The light-weight pellets I use in my M4's limit their effective range because of wind deflection.
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W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 07-28-2013 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 07-28-2013, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aom22 View Post
I don't know ... haven't bought a chrony - yet.
However, I did find some reviews that did include velocity figures.
Actual Velocity: Crosman MK-177 vs M4-177/M417 ... Is MK-177 Significantly Faster? ... aom22

My MK-177 with light pellets less than 7.9gr, I intend to use 6-strokes.
With 7.9 and greater pellets and up-to 8.64gr, I will be using 8-strokes.
Any heavier pellets, and I'll try 10-strokes.
I bought a F-1 chrony from Wal-Mart.com, $80 site to store. Just sayin....
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:24 PM
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JSB Match Diabolo Exact Express 7.87gr at at 20-Yards

Today, after spending sometime shooting my MK-177 with 8-strokes per shot,
I got tired and decided to re-tryout the JSB Exact Express 7.87gr pellets.
In preparation of using JSP pellet, I cleaned the barrel throughly and then swabbed
the bore with clean patches 5-times.

Then, I fired 3-clips at 10-meters (33-feet) to be certain the barrel was seasoned/fouled
with JSB pellet lead residue.
Afterward, I began to shot some 5-shot strings on an existing target set at 20-yards.
Standing Position
Leaper's Bug Buster 4X32 AO IR
Forearm Fully-Rested on Rolled-Up Support Pad
Conventional AR-15/M16 Rifle Hold
JSB Exact Express Diabolo 7.87gr
5-Shot String, 6-Strokes Compression
Deliberate Fire at 20-Yards
Gusty Variable Winds
TYPICAL



After some encouraging results, I set-up a clean target with lines as a POA reference.
Moreover, I used a mil-dot as an aimpoint.
I found it easier for me to align a reticle mil-dot with the POA reference lines.
By the way, this is why the POIs f the 5-shot sting is way above the POA.
The POI of the group is way above the POA ... by a full mil-dot.

With these examples of JSB Exact Express pellet groups showing consistent accuracy
with 6-strokes of compression.
I'm going to zero the rifle/scope with these lighter 7.87gr pellets.
Good accuracy with fewer strokes of compession using a lighter pellets ... sounds like
a good combo to me.
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you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:20 PM
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H&N Sport Match Pistol Pellets ... 4.49/4.5/4.51 Millimeter Head Diameters

A couple of days ago, I decided to try-out some Hi-Speed Pistol Pellets in my MK-177 and M4-177
I had three sizes on-hand 4.49, 4.5 and 4.51 millimeter head diameters.
Beginning with a group of 4.5mm pellets ... I was disappointed with the cluster generated.
The 4.49mm pellet fared none better.

As such, I had low expectations for the 4.51mm pellets.
As Ron White would have said ... "I was wrong."
Standing Position
MK-177 Leaper's Bug Buster 4X32 AO IR
M4-177 Leaper's Bug Buster 6X32 AO IR
Forearm Fully-Rested on Rolled-Up Support Pad
Conventional AR-15/M16 Rifle Hold
H&N Sport Match Pistol 7.56gr, 4.51 Head Diameter
5-Shot String, 6-Strokes Compression
Deliberate Fire at 20-Yards
Light Variable Winds
NOT TYPICAL

As the target attests, these relatively inexpensive H&N Match Pistol pellets performed admirably well.
It it goes without saying, I was duly surprised and impressed.

Notice the M4-177 POIs have two dimes displayed.
The left-dime appears larger because it is nearer ... while the right-dime is set deeper.
As the POI of the M4-177 group struck a curved surface ... outer edge of my paper-plate target.
For this reason, I could not easily out-line the compound surface the pellets hit.

So, why did the MK/M4 perform so well with the larger 4.51mm head diameter pellets?
Could be ... both rifles have loose bores to accommodate BB use.
I'm wondering if this is a common characteristic of all Crosman dual-ammo BB/pellet guns?

In the future, I will be ordering a sample of larger of 4.51mm head diameter pellets that I've already tried-out
in my MK/M4 to see if accuracy improves significantly - or, not.

Reference: MK-177 4X32 / M4-177 6X32 ... Boomer: Think I've Found the Magic Pellet Expand Thread
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 08-04-2013 at 04:27 PM.
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