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Old 08-02-2012, 02:24 PM
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My Crosman M4-177 ... Corrections Officer M16/AR15 Designated Marksman Training Rifle



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M4-177 with UTG 6X32 Compact CQB Bug Buster
Quote:
Originally Posted by aom22 View Post
For the longest time, I've been longing for a multi-stroke pneumatic air rifle that mimicked the look
and feel of the M16/AR15 system.
I'm retired from military service and am currently performing Correctional Officer duties
with the Texas Department of Criminal Justice.
As part of my periodic training, I must qualify with the AR15 at least on an annual basis - sometimes, more often.
If ever, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice were
to consider initiating a Designated Marksman Program
I hope I might be a contender.
Well fellas ... I went and did it ... Got an M4-177 with a 6X32 Bug Buster scope.
I've been wanting a scoped M4-177 for a long time ... now I have one.



I haven't had much of a chance to shoot my M4-177 after I mounted the scope.
As, I had a difficult time getting the rifle to put pellets on paper.
The scope required so many clicks to adjust ... I was a little thrown-off by the process.

After a few clips, I pondered the matter and turned to my privacy fence.
And, targeted a knot in one slate.
A few pellets with 3-strokes of compression hitting the fence ... I began to make quick progress.
Three full-clips later, I was on paper at five yards.
.................................................. ............................... Yep, an M4-177 .................................................. ........................................

The addition of the Leaper's UTG 6X32 CQB Bug Buster has added some needed heft to the M4-177.
My unscoped M417 is very light ... too light I think - I wished my carbine had more metal incorporated into the design for the sake of more weight.

By the way, the compact 6X32 Bug Buster really looks right on the M4-177.
I'm really impressed by this.
However, there is a small gnat in the ointment, the medium rings position the scope well on the receiver.
But, by design the AR15/M16 places the shooter head in an upright position.
As such, the medium rings are a bit too low to keep my head fully upright.
In the near future, I'll be swapping-out the rings with a set of high rings.



As I had expected, the addition of an optical sight sight to the M4-177 platform is a significant enhancement over the factory peep sights.
Nothing wrong with peep sights ... but, they are not the best choice when it comes to wringing-out more accuracy from a rifle.
The multi-stroke pneumatic Crosman M4-177 is no an exception - either.
Standing Position
Forearm Supported by Hand
Hand Contacting Rolled-Up Support Pad
Full Cheek Contact with Comb
Conventional AR-15/M16 Rifle Hold
Crosman Premier Hollow Point 7.9g
5-Shot String, 5-Strokes Compression
Not More than 10-Seconds per Shot at 10 Meters

This tight little group really impressed me ... Why? It wasn't hard to accomplish.
Incidentally, the CPHP may not be the best pellet for this scoped M4.
It, simply, was the first pellet I tried ... I've got a bunch more to try-out.


Reference: My Scoped M4-177 for Long Shoots Expand Thread - A.O. Martinez on Nov 6, 2012, 9:39 PM
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you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 05-02-2013 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:37 PM
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Scoped M4-177 ZERO: Beeman FTS 8.64g at 20 Yards

For the time being, I've decided to ZERO my scoped M4-177 at 20 yards.
This range will work well for the pests I intend to target ... sparrows and collared Eurasian dove.
Coupled with the ChairGun Pro drop chart and the fact the reticle of the UTG 6X32 is graduated
in full mil-dots did not provide enough useful reference points.

The half-mil feature was unspecified by me when I ordered the scope.
But now, I wished I selected a 1/2 mil-dot optic.
However, after a short time of exposure, I feel the full mil-dots is going to prove useful.
But, not as useful as a true 1/2 mil-dot would be at extended ranges.

In-order to establish a good ZERO, I decided to simulate a typical shooting scenario I will encounter.
As such, I fired the M4-177 off-hand from a standing position with the hand supporting the forearm of the rifle
braced against an improvised shooting stand - very realistic.
Simulated Field Shot
Standing Position
Forearm Supported by Hand
Hand Braced Against Solid Object
Full Cheek Contact with Comb
Conventional AR-16/M16 Rifle Hold
Beeman (H&N Sport) FTS 8.64g
5-Shot String, 6-Strokes Compression
Not More than 10-Seconds per Shot at 20 Yards


Prediction based on information gleamed from
Plinker's Dream: Crosman M4-177 (Chrony, Accuracy, Photos)

NOTE: Kill Zone: .250
PBR: 12.8 to 21.8 Yards
Because of the methodology I employed in ZEROing the M4-177, the group was not to going be a single big hole.
As such, the spread was pushing beyond the bounds of a dime - if ever so slightly.
But certainly, well under a nickel.
All considered, still a good showing for a less than one hundred dollar air rifle at 20 yards.
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 04-27-2013 at 12:38 AM.
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:45 AM
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M4-177 6X32 Bug Buster: 20 Yard Group

Got up this morning and couldn't wait to take a few shots with my scoped M4-177.
Oh boy, oh boy! I feel like a kid with a new BB gun - it's a good feeling.
Unfortunately for me, my immediate elation was to be short ... lived.

I picked-up a tin of Crosman Premier Hollow Points 7.9g and shot a clip-full ... the group was
the size of a ping-pong ball - very, very disappointing.
Next, I shot a 5-shot strong of Crosman Silhouette and Field Target 7.9g ... the spread was
slightly larger than a quarter - more disappointment.
In near desperation, I resorted to the Beeman FTS ... the initial three shots showed promise.
I took a quick break and started a new group ... this time, I wasn't disappointed.
Standing Position
Forearm Rested on Rolled-Up Support Pad
Full Cheek Contact with Comb
Conventional AR-16/M16 Rifle Hold
Beeman (H&N Sport) FTS 8.64g
Two 5-Shot Strings, 6-Strokes Compression
Not More than 10-Seconds per Shot at 20 Yards

With these results, I think I've found a serviceable longer range pellet
for my M4-177.
In the process, I think a quirk of the Leaper's UTG 6X32 Bug Buster is surfacing.
The compactness of this short scope might be contributing to the introduction
of parallax error related to head placement - seems to be a critical factor.
I don't like having to contend with being conscious of my head placement.
As I had mentioned earlier, it appears like high-rings are in-order.
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:08 PM
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__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 04-27-2013 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:57 PM
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M4-177 6X32 Bug Buster with High-Rings: 20 Yard Group

Quote:
Originally Posted by aom22 View Post
In the process, I think a quirk of the Leaper's UTG 6X32 Bug Buster is surfacing.
The compactness of this short scope might be contributing to the introduction
of parallax error related to head placement - seems to be a critical factor.
I don't like having to contend with being conscious of my head placement.
As I had mentioned earlier, it appears like high-rings are in-order.
On an accelerated basis, I changed-out the quick detach medium-rings with a set of detachable high-rings as I had intended to.
Why? A couple of days after, I installed a Leaper's UTG 4X32 CQB Bug Buster on my Daisy 880.
While I was ZEROing the 880, I noticed that any head movement caused a noticeable shift in the field of view.
It was as if, a wave traveled through the image I was concentrating on.
Apparently, when my eye was diverted from the optical center of the telescopic sight, noticeable parallax error was introduced.

This incident prompted me to install the high-rings as soon as reasonably possible on my M4-177.
As the medium-rings I had initially installed were causing me to consciously lower my head to find the optical center
of the 6X32 telescopic sight.
It was becoming a concerted effort on my part to find the optical center of the scope for each and every shot.
Otherwise, pellet POI would change.

With high-rings installed, the difference in height is only 5mm or ~.197 inches - doesn't seem like much.
But, it's enough to place my head in a more comfortable up-right position.

As I set about re-ZEROing, almost immediately, I was having problems.
The groups had opened-up to the size of a quarter.
After an hour of utter frustration I realized what the problem was.

Apparently, with the high-rings, the hand holding the stock while pumping-up the rifle was brushing-up against
the scope eye piece.
Then, I realized my grasp of the M4-177 while in-putting compression strokes may cause the entire carbine to flex
in particular the receiver, scope mounts/rings and scope.
As such, I had to find an alternate method of holding the carbine while compressing the air charge.

I changed my grip so my left-hand held the carbine barrel opposite of the compression handle while my right-hand
worked the compression lever.
The net result ... no compression stress was being transmitted past the delta ring.
As such, the combined effect of different compression stroke technique and non-contact with the scope during the process,
the size of the groups began to shrink - but, nothing remarkable ensued.

I took a break, then decided to fire-off one final group for the day.
The pie plate target I had been shooting at was used-up.
So, I decided to use a posted note stuck to the pie plate as my last mark.
I constructed the reference point with straight lines forming angular clues to aid in aiming.

Also, this time around I decided to employ some springer techniques to shoot the M4-177.
Moreover, I took an extremely long-time to compose each shot.
To the point of charging-up the carbine and waiting at least two-minutes to recover from the effort while at
the same time I was hyperventilating myself.
This was a long arduous and grueling 5-shot string.
That I ruined on the last shot ... even so, the resultant spread was only slightly larger than a dime - typical for this particular
M4-177 at 20 yards.
Needless to say, the high-rings helped in managing shooter induced parallax error.
Standing Position
Forearm Supported by Hand
Hand Lightly Contacting Rolled-Up Support Pad
Rolled-Up Support Pads for Lateral Support of Hands Holding Forearm
Full Cheek Contact with Comb
Conventional AR-16/M16 Rifle Hold
Beeman FTS 8.64g
5-Shot String Over 30 Minutes at 20 Yards

The blacked-out detail ... started to write Crosman
By this time, I was fatigued.
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 05-01-2013 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:12 PM
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Scoped M4-177: 5-Shot Group at 30 Yards

awesome you really do have this gun down to a science ,
love to see 30 yrd groups.nt

- robny on Oct 28, 2012, 4:39 PM
Well, I spent part of the day shooting some 30 yard groups ... wasn't easy.
I was in a bit of a hurry.
Why? The wife was gone and might be coming back soon.
As I was shooting the entire depth of our house and backyard.
From the front door of our garage conversion, through the expanse of the former garage,
onto the utility wash room, out a window, traversing the entire backyard to a pellet stop
suspended on the privacy fence - a full 30 yards.

In-particular, I attempting to verify the pellet drop information I sourced from ChairGun Pro.
As can be seen, something is not ... quite jiving.
Regardless, I was able ... at the very least ... to affirm scope windage and elevation adjustments.

Most of the other 5-shot strings I fired were spread-over an area the size of a quarter.
Some of the groups were slightly less than a quarter.
But, more frequently the groups pushed the bounds of a quarter ... somewhat.
The following photo is the best group of the day.
Standing Position
Forearm Supported by Hand
Hand Lightly Contacting Rolled-Up Support Pad
Rolled-Up Support Pads for Lateral Support of Hands Holding Forearm
Full Cheek Contact with Comb
Conventional AR-16/M16 Rifle Hold
Beeman FTS 8.64g
5-Shot String at 30 Yards

After I fired this exceptional 30 yard group, I decided to compose a shot
to demonstrate the parallax problem I'm experiencing.
From the same firing position, I situated myself in a more constrained but well braced
shooting stance.
Then, I had to re-positioned the M4-177 to accommodate how I was standing.
Rather than my head being fully upright, my head was slightly out-of-position.
This situation forced me to hunt for the optical centerline of the scope.
Then, with determination I fired the following string in moderate sucession.

As you can see, the POI has shifted due to shooter induced parallax error.
Using a very compact UTG Bug Buster requires me to look for the optical centerline of the scope.
That is, if my eye/head were not are properly aligned in-order to minimize parallax error.
As such, my head must be in a fully upright position to find the optical centerline easily.
This is why I switched to high rings/mounts ... to make this task easier.
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 05-01-2013 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:55 PM
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AOM:

This is a great thread.

As for the parallax, have you adjusted the parallax on the adjustable objective? That should eliminate parallax error. Note that on these budget level scopes, or any scope, for that matter, that numbers on the AO are approximate. You may have to test the settings and adjust +/- to dial in the exact parallax for the distance you are shooting.

Note that this is only important for shooting groups. When hunting, you just crank the parallax setting to the approximate range you're shooting and have at it. It will minimize the parallax error over a fixed scope.

Good luck!

-John
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:42 AM
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Low-Powered Scopes and Parallax

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaundice View Post
As for the parallax, have you adjusted the parallax on the adjustable objective?
That should eliminate parallax error.
Note that on these budget level scopes, or any scope, for that matter, that numbers on the AO are approximate.
You may have to test the settings and adjust +/- to dial in the exact parallax for the distance you are shooting.
Hmmmm, good points jaundice.
Rather than good enough, perhaps, I need to take a little more time to more finely adjust the AO
and/or ocular as well for each shot - as the distance changes even slightly or my vision indicates.

Scope Parallax Explained By Jock Elliot ... good reminder
Quote:
On low power scopes, where everything tends to seem in focus no matter what distance the scope is focused at,
you’ll have to focus the scope, move your head to check for parallax,
and repeat until you have removed parallax error at a particular distance.

Otherwise, parallax error can throw off your shots at surprisingly short distances.
Reference: AO ... Basics are Missed
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W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:58 AM
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"As I was shooting the entire depth of our house and backyard.
From the front door of our garage conversion, through the expanse of the former garage,
onto the utility wash room, out a window, traversing the entire backyard to a pellet stop
suspended on the privacy fence - a full 30 yards. "

As a corrections officer with police training and a NRA member I can't believe you set up to shoot like that? there's no way you can see if anyone cutting accross your property when your inside the other end of your house. Yeah it's just a pellet gun !! they have killed people before .Please shoot safely ,indivuales actions reflect on the whole shooting community ,We need to go the extra mile to make sure accidents don't happen ~~JMJ~~
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:11 PM
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Shooting Pellet Rifle: Indoors and Outdoors

Mossbergman ... With due care, I can safely shoot my pellet rifles in my backyard.
And, while exercising more caution, I can responsibly shoot my air guns inside of my home from
the garage conversion into the utility room.
To simulate a 30-yd range, I did both, shooting indoors and outdoors, simultaneously.

I live in a rural area of West Texas.
A convenient air rifle range is non-existent.
So, we country bumpkins of necessity ... improvise - a lot.
View of Simulated 25 Yard Range
For 30 Yard Range ... I Move Deeper Into Garage
.. Inside garage .. at shooting station inside utility room utility room window view

My lot is surrounded by a 6 1/2 foot wooden privacy fence.
The likelihood of anyone unwittingly wandering into my line-of-fire is virtually nil.
Moreover, the sound of my pellet rifle going-off should/would be a relative hint/indication
for any interloper not to proceed any further.
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 02-22-2015 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:34 PM
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Game Hunting with a Crossman M4177

Quote:
Nice shootin'! Remember to keep some pelgun oil on the piston's pump cup to help preserve the aluminum ()m valve.

This announcement has me intrigued. They say it has a more powerful valve. Many ???s ...

ACR

Quote:
berkshirehunter .... The camo gun isn't mine.
It belongs to a fellow under the tag "shadow" on the GTA airgun forum.
He's often in the hunting section and has made some incredible kills with his stock m417.
He does admit the gun is pretty weak for hunting though, you absolutely have to make
perfect brain shots within a reasonable range.
I just think his M417 is awesome, he charges about $60-$70 for camo jobs though ...
Game Hunting with a Crossman M4177

Quote:
I weighed the nutter which was over two and a half pounds the Fox Squirrel can get over
three pounds if eating good and this guy had been eating more then his share hehe.
The M417 can take a Fox Squirrel as long as you keep her within her capable range
pellet selection and shot placement.

Big Game hunt

Quote:
I aldo wanted to get a visual update on a G-hog den that has been dorment for a long time.
When up hunting I always check the dens for activity and yesterday
this den had a very fresh mound of dirt outside the hole.
I limited myself on the weapon of choice and grabbed the M417 .177
which has cleanly harvested nutters and bunnies.

Quote:
The M417 was already fully pumped with a Gamo Hunter pellet in the tube and for me this G-hog
was within my size limit.
The G-hog had no idea that just 15yrds away cross hairs were locked into the sweetspot on it's fusebox
and a go ahead was given.
I whispered to myself that if you ever needed to make a shot count it was now knowing how tough
thes critters are.
With steady pressure on the trigger I found the fire point exhailed and sent
a Gamo Hunter away.
I descent "twack sound followed and the G-hog lurched forward and right
onto it's belly right in fornt of the den.
I was up on a knee pumping then chambering another round as well as watching
the G-hog without much success push itself on it's belly.
Reference: Crosman M417 Reveiw by shadow

Last edited by aom22; 04-28-2013 at 05:35 PM. Reason: Moved to New Thread
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:52 PM
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Crosman Premier Silhouette Field Target at 20 Yards

I have a carton of Crosman Premier Silhouette Field Target pellets on-hand.
And, I hadn't tried then out on my scoped M4-177 that is until a couple of days ago.
The H&N FTS pellets I've been using are a very good match with my M4.
But, I wanted to find a cheaper alternative and lighter pellet for greater velocity
and flatter trajectory while still being wind resistant.

I didn't have any expectations the CPSFT.
Well, to say the least, I wasn't disappointed.
The CPSFT pellets did better than I had thought would be.
The following target shows six pellet strikes.
On shot four, one of the pellets unexpectedly strayed from the main group.
This one wayward POI was squarely my fault proven by firing one more shot
that landed within the main group.
The main group of five pellet strikes were under a dime.
And, accounting for the off pellet strike ... still, all under a nickel.
CPSFT 7.9 gr. at 20 Yards
Standing
Forearm Supported by Off-Hand
Off-hand Rested on Rolled-Up Pad
6-Shots, 5-Strokes Compression

As a side note, I wondered how far-off the CPSFT ZERO was from H&N FTS 8.64gr pellets.
Knowing the FTS pellets were heavier, I added an additional stroke of compression
for a total of 6-strokes and sent a few FTS down range.
To my surprise, the extra compression allowed the heavier pellets to effectively have
the same POI at 33ft and 20 yards - a nice added bonus.
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 05-04-2013 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:03 PM
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RWS Super-H-Point 6.9gr at 10-Meters and 20-Yards

Because the Crosman M4-177 does not develop very high velocities.
I decided to try-out some lighter pellets to reduce the number of compression strokes
needed to achieve a reasonably flat trajectory.
Standing Position
Forearm Supported by Hand
Hand Rested on Rolled-Up Pad
5-Shot at 10-Meters (33-Feet)
3-Strokes Compression
Very Light Breeze

The resulting group at 20-yards was a surprise to me.
This was the best Super-H-Point group I fired during the course of the day.
Typically the Super-H-Point pellets would pattern under a nickel and slightly larger than a dime.
Even so, acceptable accuracy with a 6X scope.
Standing Position
Forearm Supported by Hand
Hand Rested on Rolled-Up Pad
5-Shot at 20-Yards
5-Strokes Compression
Very Light Breeze

The wind was rather calm ... just a slight random breeze.
I really need to shoot a few groups in a breeze or gusty wind conditions to see how well
these very light pellets will buck-the-wind.
I really am hoping the 6.9gr Super-H-Point pellets will perform better than the 7.4gr Crosman
Destroyer EX pellets in such conditions.
I'm sure I get the chance, but, I'm not holding my breath with the expectations the very light 6.9gr pellets
will perform satisfactorily in windy conditions
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 05-05-2013 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:23 PM
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RWS Super Dome 8.3gr Pellet at 20 Yards

Not long ago, I purchased some RWS 8.3gr Super Dome pellets to try-out in my Daisy 880.
My M4-177 shoots well-enough with 8.64gr Beeman FTS pellets.
However, the Crosman M4's are relatively low-powered, low-velocity MSP air rifles.
As such, I was wondering of the lighter Super Dome's might be more compatible with the
performance characteristics of the Crosman M4.
So today, I decided to shoot a few clips to see how well the Super Domes would perform in my M4-177.
Standing Position
Forearm Supported by Hand
Hand Rested on Rolled-Up Pad
5-Shot at 20-Yards
8-Strokes Compression
Very Light Breeze

As it turns-out, the Super Dome pellets did just fine.
One thing I noticed that surprised me ... the 8.3gr Super Domes grouped better under 8-strokes of compression
and less well under a 6-stroke charge.
Moreover, my Daisy 880 exhibits good enough accuracy with the Super Domes and are cheaper than the Beeman FTS pellets
which set the consistent standard for accuracy in my .177 air rifles.
I might change-over to RWS pellets to simplify my pellet requirements.

I just wished I could wring-out the same level of consistent accuracy from Crosman pellets such as the 7.9gr Crosman Premier
Silhouette Field Target domed pellets - that would be something.
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 05-05-2013 at 08:04 PM.
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  #15  
Old 05-03-2013, 10:27 PM
BowerR64

Join Date: 
Nov 2012
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Does this model have the rifled barrel? It seems pretty accurate so it must have a rifled barrel but im not sure?

Does anyone know?
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