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Old 06-05-2012, 09:23 PM
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My Crosman M4-177 ... Backyard Trainer for M16/AR-15 Marksmanship Qualification



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For the longest time, I've been longing for a multi-stroke pneumatic air rifle that mimicked the look
and feel of the M16/AR15 system.
I'm retired from military service and am currently performing Correctional Officer duties
with the Texas Department of Criminal Justice.
As part of my periodic training, I must qualify with the AR15 at least on an annual basis - sometimes, more often.

At a previous posting in Huntsville, Texas, I was assigned to the Second Shift Perimeter Security Team.
As such, I had to qualify with various firearms on a semi-annual basis.
I've had a real need for an air rifle to practice my marksmanship skills to ensure I was proficient with a rifle.
Now, Crosman has seen fit to produce an affordable AR15 replica that could prove a valuable asset
for firearms qualification training.

First Blood: Grackle at 5 to 6 yards in a leafy tree ... perfect application for iron sights

Quote:
Common Grackles are resourceful foragers.
They sometimes ... steal worms from American Robins, raid nests,
and kill and eat adult birds.
I had been reading the rumors of a derivative of the Crosman 760 was coming to market.
And, when it became known the version to be produced would bear similarities to the M16/AR15,
I became very wishful as I watched and waited in anticipation.

Finally, about six months ago I purchased a Crosman (then known as) M417 on an unrelated trip to Odessa, Texas.
I took a detour to one of the big box sporting good stores.
I made a beeline to the firearms section ... lo and behold ... I came across a single Crosman M417 on the shelf.
Within minutes, I purchased the little carbine and safely stashed (hide it) my latest acquisition in the trunk
of my wife's car.

I had hopes and expectations that the M4-177 would prove to be a realistic solution for my needs.
But, for a purchase price of eighty dollars I was very cautious not to allow my expectations to get the best of me.

When I first took the little Crosman carbine out of its box, I was surprised by how light the air rifle felt in my hands.
Not quite what I had what I had expected.
I really anticipated the M4-177 would be somewhat heavier - but, it wasn't.
As I handled the air rifle further, I was generally impressed with the over-all appearance and detail characteristics
of the carbine.

Then, I tried to manipulate the safety lever - it wasn't a safety lever.
Instead it was the opening to the BB reservoir.
The magazine release button ... didn't release the magazine - it was non-functional.
The charging handle non-functional.
The bolt hold-back and release paddle were non-functional.
The forward assist element was non-functional.
However, the collapsible stock was functional.


To say, I was becoming disappointed would be gross understatement.
In fact, I was becoming a little angry at myself at falling for the advertising hype of the M4-177.
As I gently let myself down, my purchase of the M4-177 was being translated into a set-back ... in my mind.
I felt the on-set of a major case of buyer's regret coming-on.

So, I put my M4-177 back in her box and put my purchase into the back of my bedroom closet ... to sit
for a few months.
While, I thought it over ... what I was going to do with the M4-177?

Sufficient time has passed and I have gotten-over my initial negative impression of the M4-177.
And, I been shooting the M4-177 on an almost daily basis ... my opinion has changed.
I think, I'll be keeping this little dressed-up 760 for a while.

So, why did I have a change of heart concerning the M4-177?
The little M4-177 meets my minimum requirements for a backyard M16/AR15 marksmanship trainer.
First of all, my M4-177 is reasonably quiet ... a 3-stroke charge is sufficient for 10-meter paper punching.
The M4-177 is a repeater ... a very helpful feature in an MSP used for frequent practice.
The peep sights are adequate for 10-meter target practice.
And, most important of all, the trigger is reasonably serviceable ... not good, not bad - adequate.

All considered, it seems the M4-177 will serve my needs as an urban and/or backyard practice air rifle
and will be a useful training tool for my job.

References:
Crosman M417 Crosman ... Initial Impressions
Expand Thread on Jan 24, 2012 8:55 PM
2nd Impression ... Crosman M4-177 with Iron Sights ... First Blood: CQB Grackle - GRAPHIC
Expand Thread on Jun 3, 2012 7:29 PM
Crosman M4-177 Rail: What Standard is Crosman Observing - Picatinny or Weaver???
Expand Thread - A.O. Martinez on Jun 5, 2012, 1:01 PM
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:24 PM
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Structural Elements and Design Features of the M4-177

If the M4-177 is based-on the Model 760 ... it is darn near impossible to tell.
But, then, I'm not a Crosman aficionado.
In the mid-80's I purchased a 760 for a nephew, this was when the receivers were still metallic.
Also, a few years ago before I bought my current Daisy 880, I took another serious look at the 760 line.
However, I rejected the the idea of owning a 760, over an 880, based solely on the lack
of a rifled barrel - the 880 has a steel rifled barrel.
This has been the extent of my 760 interaction.

After taking a critical look at my M4-177, everything is covered in synthetic/composite material or plastic.
About the only thing I can vaguely make-out as of 760 origin is the compression tube and metal cocking linkage.
Even then, I'm not certain.

Every visual aspect of th M4-177 is dedicated to looking-like an M16/AR15.
I place emphasis on looking-like because this is the full extent of the relationship between the M4-177 and an M4 M16/AR15.
However, virtually every structural element or design feature that appears to be of M16/AR15 origin is non-functional .
As far as the M16/AR15 connection goes, the M4-177 is nearly all-show and no-go excepting the reciprocating bolt
and adjustable butt - the bolt might be a stretch.
By the way, the butt-stock has no provision for storage.

The detachable box magazine does not feed ammunition.
Instead, the mag serves as storage space that holds the front sight adjustment tool.
And, has enough additional space to hold a small screw driver for rear sight adjustments and/or a Pellgun oil tube - how handy!
But, ammunition ... Well, may be the space for a traditional round tube could be found.
By the way, the mag can be snapped-in forward or backward ... either way works - go figure.

Crosman M4-177 Crosman ... Initial Impressions
Quote:
What I don't like.
The control buttons are very well molded-in the synthetic receiver.
But, for the most part ... they are non-functional.
The Forward Assist does nothing.
The Charging Handle does nothing.
The Magazine Release Button does nothing.
The Bolt Hold Open Paddle Button does nothing
The Safety Lever does something ... door for BBs to enter receiver - not as a safety.

The M4-177's primary functions have been engineered to circumvent the operational elements of the M16/AR15.
For example, it has a clip feed system that hold 5-shots ... BBs or pellets.
It is horizontally positioned, feeds right-to-left and is manually indexed.
The clip is made of plastic and serves to en-cage each respective projectile.
To orient the magazine, the top leading edge of the clip has a projection that corresponds
to a cut-out in the receiver feed slot.

A notch is molded on the top of each ammo chamber.
This notch mates with a lobe centered at the top of the receiver feed way
The lobe locks the clip in-place at the 12 o'clock position at the breech end of the barrel.

At first, I was not confident in the clip feed system.
Indexing is tactile dependent and friction locked.
When manipulating the clip to feed the next pellet, it is easy to over-shoot the lock point
with a little too much force when trying to index quickly.
However, with practice and experience the process becomes second nature.
I have become to like the clip feed system.
In comparison to single-loading a pellet ... manual clip feed is a superior method - not perfect, but, definitely better.

Another distinctive feature of the M4-177 shared with the M4 versions of the M16/AR15
is the rail system.
The M4-177 has four rails: one on the receiver, the two on the pseudo gas block and one on
the compression charging lever.
The short rail on the underside of the gas block and the rail on the compression lever are nearly useless.
The movement of the compression lever brings both of these rails within close proximity.

If any accessory were mounted in either position ... under full movement
of the compression lever ... a collision surely would occur.
Also, I'm not certain to what specification the rails are manufactured under - GI picatinny or weaver - perhaps,
a hybrid of both systems.

Speaking of the mounting rails, their integral composition is an important factor - the composite material
of the receiver cannot be ignored.
During the late '90's, I had a chance to examine an early example of the Carbon-15 ... all synthetic receiver.

What struck me from that first introduction, the amount of noticeable flex between the barrel and receiver - unsatisfactory.
Why did this condition exist?
The Carbon-15 engineers decided to keep the external dimensions of the -15 receiver the same as a metallic M16/AR15.
As a result, the wall thickness of the composite receiver was too thin.
This condition was most exasperated at the areas supporting the barrel threads.
The design constraints of an aluminum alloy M16/AR-15 receivers were not suited to be fabricated from a plastic material.

On the other hand, it appears the engineering parameters of the M4-177 were initiated with composite construction
at the forefront.
The dimensions allowed for material thickness were appropriate for suitable stiffness.
The end result is a the receiver and barrel assembly that have more than adequate rigidity by design.
The collapsible stock (as might be expected - and, easily forgiven) does exhibit some flex.
But, not to an objectionable extent.

But, for all of it's shortcomings, the M4-177 does a satisfying good job at replicating the image of an M4 M16/AR15.
The butt-stock is adjustable/collapsible.
The peep sights sights are more than minimally functional.
And, the most significantly, the trigger is tolerably acceptable.
All of these features are a lot for eighty-dollars to provide in a functionally acceptable package.
But, for much less than a hundred-dollars ... what more could you expect?

Reference:
Inside of the M4-177 is Basically a 760
What's the difference between an M-417 and M4-177?
Reducing Pump Arm Slap Noise
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W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 03-18-2015 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:24 PM
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Trigger Characteristics

2nd Impression ... Crosman M4-177 with Iron Sights
Quote:
Trigger wise, the M4-177 is nothing special ... like a GI rifle trigger - not good, not bad.

But, it is surprisingly ... somewhat like ... a military surplus bolt-action rifle trigger.
A first-stage that consists of an initial very long-travel before some soft creep is encountered.
Then, some vagueness becomes apparent as the feel of the trigger firms-up.
And, terminates with a lighter that expected let-off - all the while, being repeatable and predictable.
For me, the trigger of the M4-177 is the most important function that determines the success or failure
of this rifle for my purposes.

For my intended applications, next to the military style peep sights ... the trigger is critical.
Because of the M4-177 rail system, the front and rear sights can be easily replaced.
The same cannot be said of the trigger system - replacing the trigger with an aftermarket unit
is a non-existent option.
I need an out-of-the-box trigger that is acceptable.
The price point of the M4-177, does not make it cost effective to justify the expense of a professional
airgunsmith to custom tune the trigger.

M16/AR15 Marksmanship Training Rifle for Correctional Officer
Quote:
And, most importantly of all, the trigger is reasonably serviceable ... not good, not bad - adequate.
All considered the M4-177 trigger is better than what would be expected in an eighty dollar rifle.
However, it certainly could not be confused for a match grade trigger.
I didn't expect a match grade trigger and I didn't need or want a match grade trigger.
What I require is a GI-grade trigger.
In this regard, the off-the-shelf M4-177 trigger is up to the task.

This is not to say the M4-177 trigger is just right - it isn't.
It has its own foibles for the shooter to contend with and it helps to be cognizant of them.

The most glaring issue ... the very long-travel of the trigger stroke from take-up to let-off.
And, there does not appear to be easy fix because of the nature of the bolt operation.
During the opening phase of the bolt cycle, the retreating bolt pushes the trigger towards
the full-forward position.
Mechanically forcing the trigger back to the beginning of its full-travel position.

I must add, this is not as bad as it may seem.
The general characteristics of the M4-177 trigger are easy to become accustomed to because it is not hard
to learn the technique needed to get the most accuracy from the system.
This is possible, because, the trigger is very predicable which is a direct function of the reliably repeatable
mechanical characteristics of the trigger.
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you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:25 PM
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10-Meter Accuracy ... Pellet Selection

Crosman M4-177 with Iron Sights

Quote:
With a fully-loaded clip, the M4-177 was printing quarter-size groups, off-hand, at 10-meters.
Then, something peculiar occurred to me.
With a revolver, some chambers shoot more accurately than the others.
From observation of pellet impacts, I had an intuition that the first and last positions of the clip
might be less accurate.
Moreover, on insertion the clip does not feel firmly seated in the magazine slot.
With the last pellet position, the clip seating was not as secure - either.

So, I decided to insert pellets into the most in-board positions - only.
The two most out-board chambers were left empty.
Five, off-hand, shots at 10-meters later, the pellet group shrank to a dime.
My M4-177 has been displaying acceptable off-hand accuracy using 7.9gr Crosman Premier Hollow Point
pellets shot at 10-meters.
I was a bit disappointed that the Crosman Destroyer EX pellets did not perform as well as the CPHPs.
Well, I can take some solace in the fact CPHPs are readily and abundantly available at my local Wal-Mart.

There is one fly in the ointment, the paper punching I been doing has been under three compression strokes.
With more strokes, accuracy begins to degrade noticeably.
At a full 10-strokes, the group opens-up to the size of a golf ball at 10-meters.

I am not happy with this outcome.
This may change as I expand my pellet selection.
But, for marksmanship exercise, three to four compression strokes are more than suitable for firearms qualification practice - so for now,
I'm OK with this limitation.

Moreover, I intend to practice my snap shooting technique by using empty yogurt cups set at fifteen to seventeen yards.
Even with golf ball size groups geneerated by ten compression strokes, the M4-177 might produce adequate accuracy.
If the number of compression strokes are reduced to five to seven strokes ... accuracy should increase - so much the better.
I have no intentions of practicing using 10 compression strokes - too tedious and time consuming.
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you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:25 PM
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Summary of Handling and Shooting Characteristics

The M4-177 invites me to carry the carbine every time I see the little Crosman perched on its designated spot
on my way-out to the backyard - for whatever reason crosses my mind.
I had been performing this ritual with my Red Ryder carbine ... seems for now, the M4-177 has taken the place
of my trusty little Red Ryder.

With the M4-177 in-hand, a different mind-set takes hold that I don't glom from any of my other airguns.
As I walk about my backyard, the heft and feel of the M4-177 engenders a sense of deliberate purpose.
Handling the M4-177 is an almost salient experience that imbues a feeling of responsibility - military weapons
have this effect on me.
Shooting the M4-177 is fun ... serious fun indeed.

Before any of you start thinking ... member of the fringe element.
Do this, go to your favorite sporting retail outlet store and pickup a 760 ... then, handle an M4-177.
Tell me, your thinking ... doesn't change.
Patio Perch ... Crosman M4-177 and Daisy 880

Carry of the M4-177 is very neutral exercise, as the balance point is just at the leading edge of the pseudo barrel nut
with the adjustable stock at full extension.
With my hand gripping the carbine in a carry-hold, the two-inside fingers are wrapped around the barrel nut.
And, the index finger is around the forearm guard.
The pinky finger is contacting the receiver, the M4-177 dangles muzzle-down in a way similar to how
I, sometimes, carry a duty issue M4 Bushmaster AR-15 H-Bar while posted in a perimeter picket.

In the raised position, the M4-177 feels right with the rifle mass concentrated forward of the barrel nut.
As a result, after shouldering the carbine for a deliberate shot, the muzzle seems more stable than the low weight
of the M4-177 would be expected to demonstrate.

Firing the M4-177 is an extended process wrought by the long trigger travel.
In anticipation of let-off, I find myself distracted by the conscious effort needed to resist the urge to hurry-the-shot.
It seems like a very long-time of focusing on trigger control ... over the entire length of trigger travel ... until, let-off.
Resist the urge to jerk the trigger to bring an early end to the labor of concentrated attentiveness on trigger management.
If you don't wrestle the inclination to rush ... your shot will be thrown-off.

References:
Crosman’s new M4-177 multi-pump air rifle: Part 1
Crosman’s new M4-177 multi-pump air rifle: Part 2
Crosman’s new M4-177 multi-pump air rifle: Part 3
Crosman’s new M4-177 multi-pump air rifle: Part 4

The Crosman M4-177 Pneumatic Air Rifle – Tactical looks at a very affordable price
Crosman M4-177 Multi-Pump Pneumatic Rifle
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W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:43 PM
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What you have tried to post might be nice information, but there is nothing there but the keyword for the section presumably posted. Please try again: I'm interested.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:17 PM
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Thanks for going back and assuring that the information and pictures are there! Good, detailed review; excellent information.
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:28 PM
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M4-177 Velocity and/or Energy

M4-177 ... Crosman claimed/advertised velocities
Quote:
Expect velocities up to 660 fps with BBs and 625 fps with 7.9gr, .177 caliber pellets.
The factory claims are highly optimistic ... to say the least.
I've been using 3-stokes for most of my shooting ... accuracy has been adequate.
But, I have no idea what velocity is being generated.
However, I think a compromise is in-order ... 4-strokes of compression might be more prudent.

Model M417 OWNERíS MANUAL
Quote:
Make sure to use at least three pumps (but no more than 10) to prevent a pellet from jamming in the
barrel after firing

Pyramyd Air Blog: Crosman M4-177
Velocity with BBs - Crosman Copperhead 5.1 Grains
Quote:
so I also tested some Copperhead BBs.
On five pumps, the rifle averaged 465 f.p.s. with a spread from 459 to 472.
Thatís only 13 f.p.s.,
Velocity with Pellets - Crosman Premier Super Match .177 Cal, 7.9 Grains, Wadcutter
Quote:
The pellet I used was the Crosman Premier Super Match,
which is a wadcutter target pellet thatís appropriate to a rifle in this power range.
On five pumps, the pellet averaged 429 f.p.s. and ranged from 424 to 433 f.p.s.

On high power the same pellet averaged 529 f.p.s. with a low of 508 and a high of 545 f.p.s.

Airguns Reviews: Crosman M4-177 Multi Pump Pellet gun
Quote:
Steel BBs, [email protected] = 4.58 Ft/Lbs
Approximately 100 DB

Crosman Premier Hollow Point [email protected] = 5.75 Ft/Lbs
Approximately 100 DB
Gateway to Airguns: Re: M4-177 low velocity
Quote:
PA responded that in their 10 for $10 test,
it was common for the M4-177 to shoot in the low 500s fps range.

I gave Crosman a call and asked the same question of them.
They advised that their QC passes all M4s that shoot over 500 fps and confirmed PA's observation
that the performance of my rifle is within the expected range.

Plinker's Dream: Crosman M4-177 (Chrony, Accuracy, Photos) Expand Thread - Kevin McClearey on Aug 27, 2012, 12:35 PM
Quote:
A week ago, I set up my Chrony (Beta model) on my indoor, 10-meter lane.
I took 30 shots (6 magazines), with unweighed R10s (7.0gr) straight from the tin.
Each shot was taken after giving the M4-177 six pumps.
The last 10 shots were taken while using my Lyman Digital Trigger Gauge.
Here are the results of the shooting session:

Shot 1: 492.9 fps
Shot 2: 492.4 fps
Shot 3: 491.9 fps
Shot 4: 488.7 fps
Shot 5: 492.4 fps
Shot 6: 491.8 fps
Shot 7: 486.8 fps
Shot 8: 488.3 fps
Shot 9: 486.3 fps
Shot 10: 488.0 fps
Shot 11: 489.4 fps
Shot 12: 488.9 fps
Shot 13: 487.7 fps
Shot 14: 489.2 fps
Shot 15: 490.4 fps
Shot 16: 490.2 fps
Shot 17: 486.7 fps
Shot 18: 489.0 fps
Shot 19: 490.5 fps
Shot 20: 490.1 fps
Shot 21: 493.8 fps
Shot 22: 488.8 fps
Shot 23: 489.2 fps
Shot 24: 490.4 fps
Shot 25: 489.4 fps
Shot 26: 494.3 fps
Shot 27: 491.8 fps
Shot 28: 494.3 fps
Shot 29: 488.8 fps
Shot 30: 490.1 fps

The mean muzzle velocity was 490.18 fps. [The Chrony was placed 24 in front of the muzzle.]
The standard deviation was 2.19 fps.
The muzzle energy was 4.38 ft lbs.
The trigger pull weight was 3 lbs 11 oz (average of 10 pulls).

Initial Review of the Crosman M4-177: Great Gun, Great Fun!
Quote:
I moved indoors to the 10-meter lane in my garage and got the dot scope sighted-in
with just two magazines (10 pellets).
Then I set up my Beta Chrony and shot through 10 magazines of 7.9 grain (sorted
and weighed) Crosman Premier Hollow Points
before I found it impossible to resist the resetting metal mini-silhouette targets
I also have at 10 meters away in the lane.

I took each of my "shots for record" after giving the M4-177 eight full, controlled pumps.
Although the M4-177 is fairly sturdy, no "pumper" with a lever arm deserves to be yanked open hard
and slammed shut even harder!
Here's a 10-pellet string, from the middle of my NRA 5-Bull session, that is representative
of the M4-177 performed:

First magazine:
Shot 1: 530.4 feet per second (fps), measure at 3 feet from the muzzle
Shot 2: 547.1 fps
Shot 3: 527.6 fps
Shot 4: 521.6 fps
Shot 5: 527.6 fps
Second magazine:
Shot 6: 524.7 fps
Shot 7: 545.6 fps
Shot 8: 528.3 fps
Shot 9: 532.8 fps
Shot 10: 529.0 fps

The 10-shot string yields an average muzzle velocity (with eight pumps) of 531.5 fps,
with a standard deviation of 8.4 fps.
I think that's a highly commendable level of consistency for such an inexpensive air rifle -
and the velocity is great for both indoor and outdoor plinking and, at relatively short distances,
informal target practice.
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735

Last edited by aom22; 07-11-2013 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:12 PM
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Crosman M4-177: Preconcived Notions ... My Prejudice

To say I like the Crosman M4-177 ... would be an understatement.
Since before I bought my carbine, I been enthusiastic about the concept of an MSP M16/AR-15 replica.
As such, my expectations for the Crosman M4-177 have been very high.
And, after having owned mine for a while, I've had to tamp down my enthusiasm quite a bit.
There is just so much a manufacturer can achieve with a budget projected for a MSRP of $89.00.

Even so, I want to like my M417.
I want to be happy with an M4-177.
I hope to have a long term relationship with this 760 derivative - time will tell.

What troubles me? Why do the AirSoft and Paintball guys get such authentic-looking replicas
and we pellet gun guys can't get nearly the same - functionally and esthetically speaking.
In my estimation, there is a market for affordable pellet firing look-a-likes of military and police weapons.
And, paintball guns are not what I had in-mind.
However, they are the prime example I cite in-terms of cost, affordability, functionality and faithful duplication.
We pellet guns guys could use the same set of usefulness in a much more accurate and longer-range package.

Designwise, there doesn't seem to be any obvious reason why a paintball charge can't be harnessed to propel a pellet.
The Crosman Rouge might be the genesis for a Made in USA platform that could achieve the desired end of an authentic,
pellet firing, M16/AR-15 replica.
Why this market niche is not being exploited is unfathomable to me.
__________________
W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
Ever-Onward ... Through the Fog ---- Fort Stockton TX 79735
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  #10  
Old 06-23-2012, 10:51 PM
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Good review and good job on the pics. What the heck's that bird there? Looks like a crow but slightly different.

I own a few Crosmans myself and caved on buying the tan m4-177 when pyramyd air had a sale. For a while, I had a case of buyers remorse myself. It came with the carry handle peep sight, but I couldn't get consistent groups with pellets, especially when switching between apertures. There was too much play in the stock sights.

After a while I decided to buy an aluminum UTG carry handle sight off of Amazon and it has been a huge improvement over the plastic one. (I'm sure a red dot would also have done the trick.) Now that I'm shooting more consistent, I'm pretty happy with it -just need to get some more clips. Make sure you oil the pump cup on the piston with pellgun oil or SAE 30 non-detergent oil to avoid corrosion in the valve.

They could make the stock a little longer, and completely redesign the rails so that you can mount accessories. (They would have to put some on the side.)
The trigger is what it is I guess. If you felt the need, you could silence these bad boys with a TKO lead dust cover/ muzzle brake.

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Old 06-24-2012, 01:53 PM
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Crosman M4-177: Rail Specifications ... GI Mil-Spec

Quote:
Originally Posted by BerkshireHunter View Post
It came with the carry handle peep sight,
but I couldn't get consistent groups with pellets, especially when switching between apertures.
There was too much play in the stock sights.

After a while I decided to buy an aluminum UTG carry handle sight off of Amazon
and it has been a huge improvement over the plastic one.
(I'm sure a red dot would also have done the trick.)
Now that I'm shooting more consistent, I'm pretty happy with it -just need to get some more clips.
Well, I've been thinking of doing the same thing.
But, I wasn't certain of the rail specifications.
So, I made an inquiry to Leapers.

Crosman M4-177: Rail Specifications ... GI Mil-Spec
Quote:
I have discussed the compatibility of our sights with your M4-177.
I am happy to inform you that the M4-177 is mil-spec and our sights will fit onto the air rifle.
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  #12  
Old 06-24-2012, 07:42 PM
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This should help to understand the difference in rails.
Picatinny Rails, Weaver Rails, Whatís The Difference?
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  #13  
Old 06-27-2012, 01:46 PM
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Interesting write up.
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  #14  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:04 AM
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Lucky M417 Long-Shot

Over two-weeks ago, my computer crashed.
During the time I wasn't on the internet ... I had more time to shoot my pellet guns.
As such for almost a week and a half, I shot my Crosman M417 almost exclusively.
As a result, my shot confidence with the M417 had been bolstered.

One one fine afternoon, a unique shooting scenario presented itself.
I spotted two Eurasian dove perched on a low tension electrical wire about 40-feet off the ground.
The doves were poised side-by-side and facing on opposite direction to each other.
The nearest Eurasian dove with respect to my shooting position was looking to the left.
The most far Eurasian dove was facing to the right.
I was presented with a relatively large target at an unknown distance and farther
than I've been accustomed to shooting my M417.
QUARRY: Collared Eurasian Dove

Not an Actual Photo of Shot .................................................. For Illustration Purposes Only
Normally, I don't/won't take a shot at an animal unless I have high confidence I can make a humane kill.
In this case, I really didn't think I'd make contact with the target(s) because I was not familiar
with the pellet trajectory at longer distances.
Moreover, I had some indications that my M417 had a tendency to impact slightly to the right as the range increased.
However, I did have an expectation I might be able to see the pellet in-flight.

With all of these factors in-mind, I prepped for the shot with 7-strokes of compression.
As I lined-up the shot, it became very evident the front sight post was woefully too wide
for precision shot placement on a small target at longer ranges.
Both Eurasian doves displaced a horizontal width greater than the span of the front sight post.
But, the front post subtended almost the entire width of a telephone pole at approximately 35 yards
As I tested for hold-over allowance, the front post obscured about 3/4's of a Eurasian dove - not good.

In a standing off-hand firing position, I continued to align the shot and squeeze the trigger.
My POA was center mass between both Eurasian dove.
I did not brace myself against any object ... I was completely free-standing.
After what seemed a very long time to transit the entire length of the trigger pull ... the shot went-off
in an instant of near surprise - perfect.

But, as I had expected, it was a clean miss.
However, as anticipated, I did detect the pellet as it passed high and to the right of the most far Eurasian dove.
By now, both dove were alerted to my activity and were becoming nervous.

Not an Actual Photo of Shot .................................................. For Illustration Purposes Only
I quickly cycled the bolt aft, shoved the clip to align the next pellet and pushed
the bolt forward to chamber a pellet.
This time, I adjusted for elevation by employing six compression strokes - one stroke less.
For windage, I used the nearest Eurasian dove as a reference while aligning a center-mass POA.
Moreover, this time around, I had some real-time insight into the M417 trajectory,
I repeated the second shot at a little faster pace.
And, to my slight surprise I was rewarded with a solid hit on the most far Eurasian dove.

This was not quite what I had expected.
As I was standing in the backyard in a tee-shirt and plaid boxer underwear.
I put the M417 on the ground ... yes, on the ground, this carbine is nearly an all synthetic tool.
I have no qualms about treating my M417 as utilitarian object.
And, ran into my home to put-on some shorts so I could ... decently ... go into the alleyway
behind my home to retrieve the fallen bird.

When I existed the gate of the backyard fence, I caught a glimpse of a large cat
I couldn't identify ... running away with my trophy.
The alley cats know me, when these felines hear me shooting my airguns ... they know
dinner is about to be served.
What I did find, was blood on the ground where the bird had landed - hard.
The paced distance from where I took the shot was thirty-three long strides ... approximately 30 yards.
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Last edited by aom22; 12-26-2018 at 01:24 PM.
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  #15  
Old 06-28-2012, 11:40 AM
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Sight Readjustment ... More Pellet Testing

Since I made a successful long-shot with my M417, even so it had to be walked-on target,
it became evident the peep sights of my M417 needed some more adjustment.
I took this opportunity to try-out a selection of pellets that I had on-hand.

For this shooting session, I decided to forgo a free-standing off-hand shooting stance.
Instead, I took an off-hand standing position, but, with my legs braced against a wall,
with the off-hand arm supporting the forearm steadied against the lower horizontal section
of the window sill I was firing from.

Moreover, all of the pellets tested were under 4-strokes of compression.
And, the firing range was 10-meters.
Note the horizontal/vertical black bars on the target.
These marks were used as a reference for the broad front sight post.
Beeman Precision Airgun Pellets
H&N Match
Wadcutter Competition
High Speed
7.56 grains

These match pellets produced very good relative accuracy.
As well as they should.
Beeman Precision Airgun Pellets
H&N Sport
Field Target Special (FTS)
Domed
8.64 grains

When I shot these pellets on 3-strokes,
a noticeable reduction in velocity becomes apparent.
Although accuracy is good ... the FTS pellets seem to be slowpokes.

JSB Match
Exact Express
Domed Diabolo
7.87 grains

These JSB pellets required special handling.
The rifle barrel had to be cleaned prior to shooting to extract reasonable accuracy.
Moreover, before shooting another brand of pellets,
the barrel had to be re-cleaned after firing JSP pellets.
Otherwise, without cleaning the next brand of pellets would produce a shotgun pattern.
Crosman
Destroyer EX
7.3 grains

Accuracy of these pellets improved dramatically after I cleaned the barrel.
Whether this Destroyer EX group is an anomaly ... I'm not certain.
I'll probably try shooting more Destroyers ... if, I can't find CPHPs - not a likely scenario.
However, flyers have a tendency to occur.

The result of my pellet testing certainly reaffirms to me that mounting a telescopic sight
might be a worthwhile project in-order to derive maximum accuracy from an M417/M4-177.

Also, because of the relatively low-velocities M417/M4-177 carbines seem to be generating, lightweight
wadcutters might be a likely choice of pellets ... sampling some some pistol pellets - might be a good idea too.
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you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
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