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  #1  
Old 11-01-2009, 03:41 PM
jaundice

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Need Advice: Which Russkie to get?



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Hi. I need advice on which Russian rimfire to get.

Here are my choices:

1. A CM-2 from CDNN. Cost concerns prevent me from getting a new one from MT Guns, as much as I'd like to.

2. A "cracked" Ural from Century. I've read on this forum that most of the cracks are cosmetic and don't even need to be glued. As long as I get one that can be glued, if needed, I'll be happy. I just want a functional rifle with a minimum of effort, and I'll be fine with gluing.

3. A new biathlon Basic. This is at the high-end of my price range. I've read great things about these rifles. Will they keep up, accuracy-wise, with the CM-2 and Ural?

4. Any others I'm missing?

A little background. I'm a long-time fan of the price/performance of Russian guns. I've shot an IZH-35M in Bullseye and ISU competition for almost 10 years now. It's taken me to a state championship in Standard Pistol. I'm an accuracy guy; I want a rifle to shoot extremely small groups with. I understand that the first two choices are used rifles; I can live with the compromises. However, if the Biathlon Basic is in the same league, accuracy-wise, I'd probably prefer a new rifle. I'll probably scope this rifle eventually, so scope mounting ease is a concern, but I'm not adverse to taking it to a machinist buddy of mine and drilling/tapping it and installing a mount. I would probably get MT guns' iron sight setup for the Biathlon Basic, since I like iron sights. I'm a few years away from my eyes going, so I'd like to shoot irons while I can, and then scope as needed. I've never really seriously shot rifle, and now I'd like to start. My local range has monthly rimfire silhouette and rimfire benchrest. Two different games, I know, but if I end up liking both, I'll probably get a second rifle so as to have two setups.

Thanks,

-John
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  #2  
Old 11-01-2009, 04:44 PM
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Pampered CM-2

John ... you have some very high expectations for one rifle
_ that wasn't designed for bench-rest competition.
As such, I think a Biathlon Basic might disappoint you.
Rifles based on the BI-7 action are accurate.
And, dollar for dollar ... you will be hard pressed to buy a more accurate rifle.
But, it would be unreasonable for you to expect bench-rest level accuracy.

However, a current issue, lightly used CM-2 may fit your bill.
I'd keep my eye-out in the gun auctions and classifieds for a pampered CM-2.

One other thing to take in consideration ... the dropping value of the U.S. dollar.
Prices will be rising for all imported products.
Perhaps, on second thought, it maybe a better idea to "bite the bullet ... now" and buy new.

Also, do you have the time, tools and workplace to restore
_ or refurbish a vintage VOSTOK Ural or CM-2?
Have you considered that replacement parts for old VOSTOKs
_ are virtually non-existent in the U.S.
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  #3  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:34 PM
jaundice

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AOM;

Thanks for your advice. I'd agree that while I have high hopes, I probably have more realistic expectations. I'd also agree that the auction boards are a good place to look, but I'm in California, and you wouldn't believe the hassle and expense it is to get a private-party transfer processed through an FFL. It would literally cost me $200 to get the rifle to me. It's vastly easier to order one through an established distributer such as CDNN or Century and pay a flat $60 handling fee, plus $25 DROS, and $25 shipping.

Yes, I do have the tools and skills to refinish a rifle. I've also been down the road of owning "orphaned" firearms. The first thing I'd do is pick up a full set of replacement springs, a firing pin, and extractor. I've actually found that it's pretty easy to find existing springs for other makes of firearms that match pretty much any dimensions, although it takes a bit of looking.

Thanks for the point about the Biathlon Basic. I suspected as much, but I've heard so many raves about them, I wasn't sure what the actual performance would be.

One question, when you mention that old Vostok parts are unavailable, do you mean just the Vostok Ural, or also the CM-2? If the CM-2 has more available parts, that may be the ticket.

In conclusion, let me thank you for all of your excellent information. In my research here on the forums, I've read probably 50 or more of your posts, and all of them have been very insightful. I respect your opinion.

-John
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:18 AM
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John,

You may want to talk to Mac at MT Guns. He has used CM-2 rifles as well as the new ones. Mac and I talked about his used inventory and once he understood that I could fix a cracked stock (and really wanted a project gun for this winter) he hooked me up with a very nice CM-2 top groove recv. with the cracked stock. Mac is in CA and has Russian guns from the shape mine was in to brand new.
New or used I think you will be happy with the way your Russki shoots!

Frank
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Old 11-02-2009, 09:47 PM
jaundice

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Frank;

Great tip! I knew that MT Guns is in California, so that makes it alot easier. I didn't know that they carry used and/or project rifles. I'll give them a call. Although I'm all thumbs, I have a well equipped woodshop at my disposal, and can refinish or make simple repairs easily. I'm very interested in a project rifle, since it'll also be a project of mine to learn to really shoot a rifle.

-John
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  #6  
Old 11-03-2009, 08:05 AM
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On the Ural the parts are large, tough, and almost impervious to breakage or wear. The bolt assembly is just a few MACRO parts made out of strong steel components. Nothing fine inside to lose or break. The rest is just a huge barrel and robust stock.
If you are worried about having to replace parts for a Ural to make a decision don't. Unless you lose one (it would be hard to do--you could have the firing pin spring bounce across the room and still find it because it is LARGE like a Walther PPK recoil spring).
I am not familiar with the insides of the CM-2 but I doubt it is any more complicated.
These rifles used are easily fixable or improved with basic woodworking skills. The mechanics of how they function is KISS in every way.

Hope you get one because I know I was surprised myself when I took the blind plunge with cdnn and got what I found to be the best bargain I can remember. Got mine in 2007. Pics are in the sticky of my M-1100.
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  #7  
Old 11-03-2009, 09:31 AM
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Biathlon Basic ... Benchrest Competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaundice View Post
Thanks for the point about the Biathlon Basic.
I suspected as much,
but I've heard so many raves about them,
I wasn't sure what the actual performance would be.
The BI-7-2 & -3, -4 actions have a toogle-bolt locking mechanism
_ that involves several elements that snap-over-center to lock-up.
While the contemorary CM-2s have a single, conventional locking lug.
The VOSTOK Urals may have multiple locking lugs.

Moreover, on the BI-7-2 & -3, -4 the firing pin is driven by a hammer.
They are very accurate for their intended purpose - Biathlon Competition -3 & 4, Hunting 7-2, 7-2KO.
My point, the Biathlon Series is not a logical choice for the basis of a benchrest rifle.
As a plinker or for small game hunting and pest control the BI-7-2KO will work well.
For in-formal target competition or silhouette shooting ... placed in a proper rifle class,
_ the BI-7Xs will hold their own - sometimes ... better.

The BI-7-2KO and the Youth CM-2 use the same barrel.
From a competitive/technical standpoint the CM-2 has a target specific trigger,
_ more rigid action (single-shot) and more constant lock-up (single lug).


Quote:
Originally Posted by jaundice View Post
... One question, when you mention that old Vostok parts are unavailable,
do you mean just the Vostok Ural, or also the CM-2?
If the CM-2 has more available parts, that may be the ticket....
There is no reliable source for any VOSTOK rifle parts in the U.S.
Vintage VOSTOK CM-2s and contemporary CM-2s are not the same.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jaundice View Post
Yes, I do have the tools and skills to refinish a rifle.
I've also been down the road of owning "orphaned" firearms.
Considering you're a serious DIYer, I'd certainly give some thought to a VOSTOK Ural.
If I wanted to be able to start shooting as soon as possible (hassle-free) ... I'd go NEW.
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you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
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  #8  
Old 11-03-2009, 10:39 PM
jaundice

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Well, I took everyone's advice and called Mac at MT Guns today. I discussed what I was looking for, and what I wanted, and he suggested that I forget about a new CM-2 and go for one of his used Anschutz 1407s. I told him I wouldn't mind a project rifle stock, and he quoted me a price, including anschutz sights, not much more than a new CM-2. It's a little funky, like the barrel has been set back and rechambered in his shop, but Mac assured me it shoots like new. Seeing what those rifles are going for these days, I think the deal is a steal. Granted, I'll have to refinish the stock, but like Hank Hill, that's a plus and not a minus. I've got a can of Boiled Linseed Oil in the garage right now.

It's interesting where this journey is taking me. Now I have to count my pennies and see if I can swing it.

Thanks,

-John
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  #9  
Old 11-03-2009, 11:04 PM
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Rumor has it ..Allans Armory is getting in another batch of SUHL-150-1 in.
http://www.allans-armory.com/aaresult.php?PageId=69
Nice price on the SUHL's
The Anschutz 1407 will be nice.....good luck.

Swiss
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Old 11-04-2009, 12:35 PM
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Tight Budget

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaundice View Post
... he suggested that I forget about a new CM-2
and go for one of his used Anschutz 1407s....
jaundice ... I thought you said you were on a tight budget?
Based on the 54 action, the ANSCHÜTZ 1407 is an intermediate level rifle.
As long as the rifle is in good condition, you can't go wrong with an ANSCHÜTZ.
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Old 11-04-2009, 03:38 PM
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Wanted a German ... Settled for a Russian

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaundice View Post
... It's interesting where this journey is taking me.
Now I have to count my pennies and see if I can swing it....
John ... I got here when I was looking for a Biathlon rifle that I could afford.
I was dead set on an ANSCHÜTZ Biathlon

Quote:
Originally Posted by aom22 View Post
However, in all cases ... buy the best that you can afford.
And, this is why I own a Larsen Recruit Rifle.
I was able to afford more than a Izhmash BI-7-4.

But, I could not (more like ... could not justify the expense ... married) afford an 1827 ANSCHÜTZ Fortner.
Related Threads:
New CM-2, used, or ??????????
CM-2 From MT Guns
M.T. Guns: BI-7-2 Basic With Aperature Sights ... Alternative to AzizaVFR Solution
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W. Edwards Deming ... Quality: It is not enough to do-your-best;
you must know what-to-do, and ... then ... do-your-best.
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  #12  
Old 11-04-2009, 08:53 PM
jaundice

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aom;

It looks like we're in the same boat; wife, kids, etc. getting in the way of our shooting. My problem is that I like DEALS. And when a serious DEAL comes my way, it's hard to pass up. Checking around, it seems that Anchutz 1407s go for like $650 to $1100. Adding the California factor (guns here are at least $200 more expensive than elsewhere) and subtracting the fact that a reputable dealer is standing behind the rifle, I think this is a deal that I'll have a hard time passing up. I may have to sell a couple of other guns, but I don't think I'll miss them.

-John
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  #13  
Old 11-04-2009, 11:20 PM
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The CM-2 is IMHO as good as most any Anschutz. On buying an Anschutz be sure to ask if the rifle has single or double extractors. The single extractor rifles are not known for being consistently good.
I spoke to a gunsmith with the AMU a couple of weeks ago who told me that they have only one person shooting an Anschutz that wasn't rebarreled and they do not rebarrel just because they can. I spoke to a gunsmith several months ago who retired from the AMU and he told me the same thing.
In the matches I shoot in everybody is shooting Anschutz (except me) and the better competitors have aftermarket barrels on their rifles.
Mike Rossi who shoots with us now and was a top notch competitor in New Jersey told me he had a similar experience to mine with his Annie and that he could never shoot the scores he does with the barrel that came on his rifle.
The good thing about getting a used rifle from Mac Tilton is that you can shoot it before you decide to keep it.
I have a 1907 and a CM-2 and I prefer to shoot the CM-2.
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  #14  
Old 11-05-2009, 03:48 AM
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Century "good incomplete" and "cracked stock" sales are a dice roll.There is no return option on "good incomplete". Every time I gambled with either I won, your mileage may very. My Vostok Ural (Rosa) was a Good Incomplete and it was only missing the forward most action screw, the rear sight alone was worth nearly what I paid for it. I recently bought two Suhl 150 East German match rifles "good incomplete" directly from Century(they have sold out) and am ecstatic about both of them. Rosa my Vostok may not be replaced as my go to club rifle for match but She will be given the occasional rest while I tweak on the Suhls. I called my rep at Century a few weeks ago to order another Vostok and he turned me on to the good incomplete Suhls. The Suhls show a lot of promise but for now nothing can replace my three lugged Vostok Ypan, "Rosa".
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Old 11-05-2009, 11:13 AM
white house
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Singleshot and Charlotte are right on in my take. My Ural has no grooves for a scope but I've read where others have managed to alter them to accommodate a scope. The only other rifle I have in .22LR that could compete with my Ural is a Rem 513 T Matchmaster, which has grooves for a scope but I haven't tried that yet. But the trigger on the Rem is in pounds whereas the trigger on my Ural is in a couple ounces.
The barrel of the Ural is much thicker though a few inches shorter. The sights are the same for both, peep and O ring front post.
There have been remarks made that the Ural or CM-2 is not a "real" target rifle--more like an "introductory rifle" into target shooting.
However, I am convinced I could NOT shoot a group any tighter with any other .22LR rifle than my Ural in open sights. If I were to have a scope on it I am convinced there is no Anschutz or anything that could do better.
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