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  #1  
Old 05-29-2007, 09:49 PM
Mojoski

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Fail to eject due to magazine..



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Ok, Buckmark Gurus.. I need some help here.

Last week, at my local .22 pistol league, my Buckmark Camper started having bad problems with failure to eject the spent shells I was firing. They basically would end up jammed between the barrel and the slide, just above the next round which has started to be chambered.

My initial inclination was that my gun was filthy and so I broke it all down this past weekend and cleaned it out real good. Tonight I went back to the league and got there a little early to test it out and see how things were going to work after that good cleaning. Almost immediately I started suffering the exact same failures again.

After asking one of the more seasoned shooters to help me diagnose the problem, I realized with their input that it only occurs with one of my two magazine. This seems strange to me. The magazines seem to be shaped the same to me. I don't see any major differences in the shapes of the lips, or anything like that. The spring seems to be a bit stronger in the one that works fine, although the spring in the one that is malfunctioning seems pretty strong as well.

Does any of this raise any flags for anyone here? I'd like to figure out what is causing the one magazine to fail so that I can avoid having to buy another one for such a crappy reason. The both worked great three weeks ago!

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Mojoski
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  #2  
Old 05-29-2007, 10:06 PM
chim
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I can't recall anything like that on a Browning, but let me take a stab just to get things started. There was a thread on the Ruger board a while ago where the front of the mag "tresspassed" into the path of the brass being extracted. IIRC, the mag itself protruded high enough to require a very slight trim.

If that's not a possibility, check the lips of the mag to see if the one causing the malfunctions holds the nose of the fresh round higher. If so, there's a possibility the extracted brass isn't making it all the way back to the ejector so it gets kicked out the side. The extracted brass may be getting knocked loose on the way back....................chim
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  #3  
Old 05-29-2007, 10:30 PM
Mojoski

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Thanks for the tips, Chim. I'll look at both mags sometime soon and report back on both of these issues.

Mojo
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  #4  
Old 05-30-2007, 07:25 AM
Mojoski

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Well, I looked and sure enough, Chim, the magazine that is causing problems seems to have one lip right up against the bottom of the ejector, while the one that is ejecting fine leaves a small space between it's upper lip and the ejector.

So that makes me wonder two things:

1. Why would one of my mags suddenly start sitting higher than the other?

2. Could it be that my magazines haven't changed by my ejector got bent downwards a little bit so that the decreased space is tolerable with one of my magazines, but it just pushed the distance so low with the other one as to no longer be tolerable?

In other words, should I be trying to bend my ejector up slightly, you think?

Or instead focusing on making my problematic magazine sit a bit lower..

When I hold the two mags next to each other, I can't really see any difference between them, but then I don't have any calipers either.

Any thoughts or suggestions? I tried taking pictures of the space below the ejector with both magazines, but I couldn't get my digital camera to zoom in close enough to see anything, and still remain focussed. Sorry!

Thanks for your help!

Mojo

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Originally Posted by Mojoski View Post
Thanks for the tips, Chim. I'll look at both mags sometime soon and report back on both of these issues.

Mojo
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  #5  
Old 05-30-2007, 09:10 AM
chim
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Wish I had a Buck Mark handy to look at, but that won't happen till this evening. I'm kinda leery about bending the ejector.

Assuming you bend the ejector up - On the way back, will the brass still contact the offending mag before it gets to the ejector? If so, the brass might still be bumped before reaching the ejector.

My first choice would be to mod the mag. How much material would you need to remove from the top of the mag to allow the brass to clear it? Of course, you would need to be careful not to remove any metal that would affect the way the fresh round is held/fed.

I admit to being puzzled as to why the mag didn't cause problems before. I can only guess that something must have kinda "worn in". Could be that initially the little mag eject plunger spring at the base of the grip started out a bit stiffer and kept more downward pressure on the mag?

Is there any up and down play in either mag when it's inserted? If so, can you put something between the mag base and the grip frame to see if it holds the bad mag lower just to see if it makes a difference?.................chim

Edit to add: I'd try to compare the two mags - distance from the top of the slot where the mag button engages to the very top pf the lip.

Last edited by chim; 05-30-2007 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Added
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  #6  
Old 05-30-2007, 10:35 AM
Hunter198
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Three thoughts

I've noticed the ejector on the Buckmark is a wire, which could get bent by accident with vigorus cleaning.

The only time my Buckmark jams in the manner you describe I've been using Federal ammo.

I have 5 magazines. I also have the Ultimate loader. The Ultimate loader works on three of the magazines. All five magazines function in my Buckmark just fine. So there are differences in the magazines, as to cause 2 of mine to not work with the Ultimate loader but function just fine in the gun.
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  #7  
Old 05-30-2007, 04:22 PM
rusty22

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try to find the x-factor...

mojoski,

is it safe to say that there were no changes to your set-up (gun+magazine+ammo) between now when your having issues vs. 3 weeks ago when it ran fine? you're still using the same exact ammo from 3 weeks ago? just trying to find out the "x-factor" that's disrupting your bm"s zen. if not the ammo, no mods or tweaks within the last 3 weeks?

i just took a closer look at my bm and noticed that i can "rock" my ejector slightly "up and down" but i should mention that my bm is an older series where the ejector is not "staked" down to the frame like the newer models. so for me using the space between the ejector and top of the mag as reference would do no good.

if it was a newly acquired mag, i would say that it might just be a "lemon" but you say that it worked 3 weeks ago.

any chance of you borrowing other bm mags from a shooting buddy to test out the frequency of it happening with other mags?

-rusty22
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  #8  
Old 05-30-2007, 05:17 PM
chim
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Hi Rusty, I believe you're right about the up/down movement of the ejector not being a problem. My thought is the brass being extracted is bumping something before it hits the ejector. I don't think the vertical position of the ejector is necessarily critical. As long as nothing interferes with the brass on its path to the ejector, I'm thinking the brass will be kicked somewhere out of the right side of the pistol.

The extractor doesn't have a gorilla grip on the brass. When the slide blows back far enough for the brass to contact the ejector, the contact made by the extractor on one side and the ejector on the other flips the brass to the right. If something happens to disturb the position of the brass on the way there, things just don't work as planned.

Wouldn't it be great if we had access to some high speed camera when things like this come up?....................chim
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  #9  
Old 05-30-2007, 08:50 PM
Mojoski

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It sure would, Chim! Thanks to everyone who has provided input.

A few thoughts:

1. This gun has swallowed (and spat out properly) all kinds of ammo since I got it and has never had any issues before last Tuesday at the league shoot when I started having this problem. In addition, this problem I'm having now seems to occur with this one magazine no matter what type of ammo I'm shooting. Also, the other mag works fine with all kinds of ammo. With that in mind, I'm working from the assumption that this is not an ammo related issue.

2. Neither of the magazines seem to have much play to move up or down when seated in the gun. They both sit firmly in place when inserted fully, which I suppose is a good thing, in general.

3. The left hand lip of the magazine that seems to cause the jams definitely sits right under (and up against) the ejector pin, while the other one that works fine leaves about 1-2 mm between the left lip and the ejector pin. I'm guessing that could be causing the problem, but I don't really know for sure. Seems like the brass coming back and hitting that lip instead of hitting the ejector would definitely mess up the ejection of the brass.

4. There have been no recent mods to this gun or the mags. I did tweak it a bit when I got it, but it worked flawlessly for a few weeks after that. These issues only started up last week.

5. I really wish I had a 22 range in my basement so I could make some tweaks and test it.

In software architecture we call this "decreasing the debug loop". In other words, how long does it take you to test the change you made and see if it fixes the problem. Unfortunately, my debug loop on this problem is a couple of days because I just don't get time to go to the range very often.

I'll keep playing around and let you guys know what I discover. Thanks for all of your help, everyone!

Mojoski
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  #10  
Old 05-30-2007, 09:24 PM
Mojoski

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My good mag:



And my bad mag:



Now that I'm looking at these closeup photos, I'm noticing that the front lips of the mags, close to the chamber, look a bit different as well..

Thoughts?
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  #11  
Old 05-30-2007, 10:09 PM
Mojoski

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And from a slightly different angle, the good magazine is the one that sits lower, obviously...



Thoughts? Sorry for the large file size.. Thought the animation would be helpful in showing the differences between the magazines more clearly.

Now my questions is: Why did one mag start sitting higher suddenly, and how do I fix it?

Mojoski
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  #12  
Old 05-30-2007, 10:55 PM
chim
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Mojoski, the animation is terrific. After sitting here watching the "video" for a while, it looks like the whole mag is a tad higher. Probably an optical illusion, but it almost appears there is more difference in the front than the rear.

Are the front lips bent differently? How do the rounds sit in the mags?

I had a bad mag several years ago on a Ruger 22/45 and I called the factory. We swapped mags and all was well. Wonder if Browning would be so kind. Do you have any buds you could borrow some mags from? Or any chance you bought the mag locally from a shop that would swap it for you?

I'm pretty sure another mag would fix the problem...............chim
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  #13  
Old 05-30-2007, 11:07 PM
Mojoski

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Agreed! I am just a tinkerer and wanted to make it work.

After sitting here thinking about it, I believe I know what might have happened.. I had completely forgotten that a guy at the range borrowed one of my mags 3 weeks ago at the league. I didn't have mine marked. I bet he gave me his back instead of mine by accident. I'll have to ask him about it when I see it again..

In the mean time, I guess I won't mess with it to much and just shoot my mag that works.



Quote:
Originally Posted by chim View Post
Mojoski, the animation is terrific. After sitting here watching the "video" for a while, it looks like the whole mag is a tad higher. Probably an optical illusion, but it almost appears there is more difference in the front than the rear.

Are the front lips bent differently? How do the rounds sit in the mags?

I had a bad mag several years ago on a Ruger 22/45 and I called the factory. We swapped mags and all was well. Wonder if Browning would be so kind. Do you have any buds you could borrow some mags from? Or any chance you bought the mag locally from a shop that would swap it for you?

I'm pretty sure another mag would fix the problem...............chim
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  #14  
Old 05-30-2007, 11:17 PM
Hunter198
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I agree it's the magazine

You can get Buckmark magazines at CheaperThanDirt.com for 19.57 each.
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  #15  
Old 05-31-2007, 06:07 AM
chim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojoski View Post
Agreed! I am just a tinkerer and wanted to make it work.
Now there's something I completely understand ............chim
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