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  #16  
Old 08-01-2020, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Merlin View Post
While I agree with Penage Guy that some lots of ammo shoot better than others I will say that I have never ever seen a rifle that shot a .3 group with ANY ammo shoot a 1" plus group with Lapua CX. To have a rifle that shoots 1.5 inch groups at 50 with any target ammo would make me think the barrel was an absolute POS. For a barrel with under .3" quality shooing Lapua ammo to shoot another Lapua ammo so poorly......
I have seen something like that happen. I had a very poorly shooting lot of CX last year. It did not shoot well in four different Anschutz rifles, producing results that more than doubled the average group size of other lots of CX. If it were not in Lapua CX boxes, I would have thought it was not CX but rather SK+.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-NV Shooter View Post
PG, I have to ask, why did you buy the case if it didn't shoot good? I am little confused about that, did you not test it first?
Lee, I took a chance when the dealer told me he heard good feedback from users of that lot. It was the only lot he had in quantity at the time. I returned the ammo after trying it out. Months later, after my shooting season ended in late November due to snow (my range is down an unplowed road) and the dealer received a new shipment of Lapua, I got a new lot of ammo. When the snows left and the Covid embargo was lifted on the range, I was able to determine that this new lot was indeed much better.

As I said earlier, sometimes it's not possible to test a wide variety of ammo when dealers don't necessarily have a great number of lots available. On top of that, often when they do have several different lots, they may not have significant quantities of every lot. In short, here where the market for .22LR match ammo is relatively limited, shooters who wish to get ammo in quantity take a chance. It's a good thing my dealer understands.

To give an idea of the market size in Canada, there are three main ammo dealers in the country. If I recall correctly from a telephone conversation with a dealer last year, I learned that, in addition to other makes and varieties of ammo, he sells about ten cases of CX per year. That doesn't leave much room for many different lots of ammo from this dealer.

To speculate, and assuming that there are some lots of ammo that tend to shoot well in a variety of rifles, I don't know if ammo distributors know when ammo is shipped to dealers which lots are supposed to be very good and which are average or otherwise. (Do the best lots typically come at the beginning, middle, or near the end of a production run -- or not?) In any event, it may be that the smallish Canadian dealers don't have a lot pull to get the best lots that are available.
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  #17  
Old 08-01-2020, 06:33 PM
dbuffington

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Originally Posted by dgeesaman View Post
Send it to Lapua and have them lot test Center-X in it. $11/box.
+1

I wasn't convinced of the benefits of lot testing until dgeesaman and I visited the Lapua test center in Ohio. (See https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1199321). I'm a believer now.

Enjoy!
Dave
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  #18  
Old 08-01-2020, 09:35 PM
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This thread raises a topic I've been wondering about lately. Here is why ... I feel I have improved a lot since I got my 64MPR a little over a month ago and it may be time to upgrade my ammo selections and get a tuner.

I have been shooting Federal Auto Match, CCI SV, SK Standard Plus and Pistol Match, Eley Sport and RWS Target Rifle. The two SK selections are the best and run neck and neck with 12 five shot groups at 50yds averaging 433, 437, and 434 for the Plus and 438, 436, 409 and 411 for the PM. Since I'm only measuring to .01 inches five of these are practically identical outcomes. I also calculate the best nine group average to lose the effect of the 'ammo fliers'. Those numbers are 383, 398, 401 and 393, 390, 387, and 397. Even more consistent, no statistical significance I expect.

Such consistency, and I have it to a lesser degree with the other ammos, makes me believe I'm doing my part. Thus I have been wondering how to test the waters with other better ammo choices.

Lee mentions his 'barrels are done to shoot Lapua'. Is there an overall tendency between Eley and Lapua in the 64MPR. I know different guns will like what they like but is the split 50-50 or 70-30? What about RWS which doesn't seem to get mentioned much here.

My own thinking is that I should get my rifle to the Eley facility in Okotoks, Alberta, Canada. My dream would be to go down myself but there are budget/covid considerations. I also feel that a guy has to be ready to buy a couple cases to make it worthwhile.

rflatt suggested that the OP 'buy a tuner'. That is on my mind also. It might be a reasonable/affordable strategy to by CenterX or Eley Edge by the brick and see what I can do with and without a tuner. I could get some experience tuning and if something really good comes together see if I can get more. I think it is really important that I know more and have clear expectations before heading to a test center. Watch for my upcoming thread ... 'How to Choose a Tuner'. Obviously I'll be asking, not telling.

As ever, my gratitude to the experienced members who takes the time to contribute here.
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  #19  
Old 08-02-2020, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Williwaw View Post
Is there an overall tendency between Eley and Lapua in the 64MPR. I know different guns will like what they like but is the split 50-50 or 70-30? What about RWS which doesn't seem to get mentioned much here.
While there are some shooters who suggest that German rifles tend to prefer German ammo (Lapua and RWS), Anschutz rifles can shoot well with ammo made by any of the Big Three -- Eley, Lapua, and RWS. In short there's no reason why any of them won't shoot well in your rifle, so long as it's a suitable lot. Often those who aren't competitive shooters use is what is more conveniently available and affordable to use, regardless of which ammo maker produced it.

As you are in Canada, and in a remote part of the country at that, where shipping costs are increasingly costly, sometimes you have to make a choice that's most practical. Lot testing in Canada in general can be challenging due to the limited availability of a wide number of lots at any dealer at a particular time. It may not be possible at any one time to order from a single dealer a few boxes from five different lots of CX and then be able to buy the best-shooting lot in quantity. When it is possible, it is a good time to test and buy ammo. Sometimes seasonal factors also play a role if it's not possible to shoot/test for a period of time during the winter months.

You could possibly improve the chances of getting a good-shooting lot of ammo by developing a relationship with an ammo dealer. A conversation by phone might be more nuanced than exchanged emails. This can't, however, guarantee getting a good lot as you won't know any ammo's performance until it's actually tested in your rifle.

If you have the will and means to send your rifle to the Okotoks Eley testing facility, that may well be your best option to get ammo that should shoot well in your rifle. If not attending Okotoks in person, you may not have to send anything but the barreled action for testing. This would be especially worthwhile, if you're considering a big investment in ammo.

Regarding a tuner, it may be advisable to get good shooting ammo first, as a tuner will not make ammo that doesn't give good results into something that does. It might also be advisable to have the rifle pillar- and glass-bedded as well to make the most of a tuning device.
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  #20  
Old 08-02-2020, 08:30 AM
Hi-NV Shooter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penage Guy View Post
While there are some shooters who suggest that German rifles tend to prefer German ammo (Lapua and RWS), Anschutz rifles can shoot well with ammo made by any of the Big Three -- Eley, Lapua, and RWS. In short there's no reason why any of them won't shoot well in your rifle, so long as it's a suitable lot. Often those who aren't competitive shooters use is what is more conveniently available and affordable to use, regardless of which ammo maker produced it.

As you are in Canada, and in a remote part of the country at that, where shipping costs are increasingly costly, sometimes you have to make a choice that's most practical. Lot testing in Canada in general can be challenging due to the limited availability of a wide number of lots at any dealer at a particular time. It may not be possible at any one time to order from a single dealer a few boxes from five different lots of CX and then be able to buy the best-shooting lot in quantity. When it is possible, it is a good time to test and buy ammo. Sometimes seasonal factors also play a role if it's not possible to shoot/test for a period of time during the winter months.

You could possibly improve the chances of getting a good-shooting lot of ammo by developing a relationship with an ammo dealer. A conversation by phone might be more nuanced than exchanged emails. This can't, however, guarantee getting a good lot as you won't know any ammo's performance until it's actually tested in your rifle.

If you have the will and means to send your rifle to the Okotoks Eley testing facility, that may well be your best option to get ammo that should shoot well in your rifle. If not attending Okotoks in person, you may not have to send anything but the barreled action for testing. This would be especially worthwhile, if you're considering a big investment in ammo.

Regarding a tuner, it may be advisable to get good shooting ammo first, as a tuner will not make ammo that doesn't give good results into something that does. It might also be advisable to have the rifle pillar- and glass-bedded as well to make the most of a tuning device.


PG, Gives good advice concerning using a tuner.

Lee
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  #21  
Old 08-02-2020, 08:21 PM
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Ive run into the same problem as some of the others. I had heard how well Center X shot so I purchased a brick. It shot great in my 1710 and my CZ 452. After I used that brick up I purchased another brick that didnt shoot well in any of my guns. I mostly stick with SK Rifle Match.
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  #22  
Old 08-03-2020, 09:30 AM
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Here are some results of a test of Center X and Midas. All results are from 15 two shot groups for each lot. They were shot lot a, then b then c, then c then b then a until all two shot groups were fired.

Center X test
Lot A .230
Lot B .236
Lot C .144

Lapua Midas test
Lot A .168
Lot B .176
Lot C .189
Lot D .261

It doesn't take a genius to figure which are good lots and which aren't. In the Midas, if someone only tested lot D they would say Midas is junk in my gun and if a guy shot only Lot C of the Center X he would say Center X shoots great in my gun. The truth is Lot C of the Center X statically was no different than A and B of the Midas and in reality you can't really compare the two because they were shot under different conditions. I will admit, that lot of Center X was an outstanding lot but day in and day out, the Midas lot A is still better.
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  #23  
Old 08-04-2020, 07:27 AM
Triggershoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Merlin View Post
While I agree with Penage Guy that some lots of ammo shoot better than others I will say that I have never ever seen a rifle that shot a .3 group with ANY ammo shoot a 1" plus group with Lapua CX. To have a rifle that shoots 1.5 inch groups at 50 with any target ammo would make me think the barrel was an absolute POS. For a barrel with under .3" quality shooing Lapua ammo to shoot another Lapua ammo so poorly......

Good grief. My 1949 39A has no rifling for the first 2+ inches from the chamber and it shoot better than 1.5"
I had a similar result using my CMP 40X, but instead of CX, it was MIDAS+ Literally went from .3 or so grouping (with R50) to around 1" with the Midas. I couldn't believe it Now, in fairness, perhaps I didn't give the Midas a proper chance. After shooting about 1/2 or so of the first box out of the brick, I just gave up in disgust. I remember contacting Lapua about this explaining the situation, and their response was basically to shoot a few boxes of the Midas through the rifle, and THEN try some further 5-shot grouping before before drawing any conclusions. Now, I did clean the rifle (not a DEEP clean, though) before shooting the Midas, so upon reflection, I do think this was a fair response from Lapua. However, I must confess I did not shoot any more of the Midas+, simply because I had an adequate supply of my "good" lot of R50 on hand. Took the easy way out and simply continued to use the R50 in matches. Still have the Midas, so at some point I may go back and test it further. The point I'm trying to make here is, while probably very rare, this kind of thing CAN happen. However, in fairness to Lapua, more testing of my particular lot of Midas is needed. So at some point, I will do that. Probably when I run out of the R50 Right now it is just easier to use ammo that I KNOW shoots well in my 40X. That's just being lazy, I confess
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