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  #46  
Old 07-19-2007, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Labguy View Post
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  #47  
Old 07-19-2007, 01:16 PM
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Excellent, thanks.
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  #48  
Old 07-19-2007, 02:00 PM
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So in your rifle Wolf MT is the best cost/performance tradeoff possible. Of course this chart is not weighted meaning that some of us put more importance on performance (accuracy) and some of us put more importance of cost (budget)

Your chart is perfectly balanced to my taste given that Wolf MT=Sk STD + comes out on top. Yes it would be wonderful if Fed 510 outshot Wolf/SK in my rifles but it does not. It will equal SK Pistol Match in my slabside MKII. And Fed AE5022 40 gr American Eagle ($1.35 per 50) has outshot EVERYTHING else in my CD Zastava (1" @ 100 ) But in my T/C Classic and three 10/22 SuperStocks the Wolf/SK is pretty much impossible to beat, all things considered.

It is always nice when you find one of those rare deals when cheap ammo works but I have come to the conclusion that you can NOT count on that happening and you often get what you pay for within reason.

Personally I'm just not interested in $13.10 per 50 Eley Tenex to gain maybe .010 to .025" in average group size over $3.20 SK.

Your mileage (and SPEED) will certainly vary.
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  #49  
Old 07-19-2007, 03:39 PM
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I didn't attempt to weight it either way. If you change the scale on either axis, you'll still get similar results.
From this, I agree that Wolf MT is the best value. But, of similar value (accuracy per cost) would also be Wichester Super X, Eley Practice, and Wolf ME. So, if you're willing to pay a little for more accuracy, get ME. If you want an above average performance and save money, get Winchester Super X.
I got the Eleys mainly for benchmarks. I personally won't buy more -- poor value for non-competition. And note that the Stingers are very poor value also.
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  #50  
Old 07-19-2007, 04:31 PM
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I got some Eley Club EPS from Champion Shooters and this stuff shoots better than Tenex or Match EPS in my 40x. I just ordered 1500 rounds of it, the first I ordered was at 1050 fps they where out of that speed when I ordered the 1500 rounds, they are the same lot but 1072 and 1040 fps I hope it shoots as good as the 1050. For $5 box this stuff will shoot !
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  #51  
Old 07-19-2007, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
How many different lots of match or Tennex did you try?
Several, now I have had some Tenex and Match EPS that will shoot some very tiny groups but I would rather pay $5 than $12.
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  #52  
Old 07-19-2007, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
Ah, so the Tennex and Match aren't really crappy ammo, it just the lots you had didn't shoot well, some lots still shoot tiny groups and you don't want to pay for those tiny groups. It that a fair statement?
Where in the hell did I say Tenex and MEPS was crappy ammo? Mabe I should have said it shoots as good not better. I have shot some Tenex lots that did not shoot well and the same with MEPS, I have also shot some that shoots way under 1/4 in at 50yds one of the Tenex lots holds a ARG world record. What I said was this Club Xtra shoots very well for $5 box ammo, I still will shoot MEPS as I have about 2,000 rounds and about 1000 Tenex. I cannot afford to practice with Tenex or MEPS for that matter and $5 is better than $8 and $12. And no that IS NOT a fair statement.

Last edited by 1bamashooter; 07-19-2007 at 10:22 PM.
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  #53  
Old 07-19-2007, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
I take that statement at face value. Tennex and Match are not as good as Eley Club. That's what you said, you never said that the lots you tried didn't shoot as well. But when pressed, You finally said.



So are you or are you not willing to pay for tiny groups that the Tennex or Match can't produce in your 40X.

What would you say if I said "Eley Club doesn't shoot worth a darn in my rifle but Dynapoints shoot great"? Not very qualifying is it?
%%% Over ? I know club is not as good, never said it was even if you think I did. What difference does it make what I shoot, I will shoot what my rifle likes, MEPS, Club, or Tenex, the Club is shooting tiny groups and I'm paying $5 not $12. If those Dynapoints are shooting great then I would shoot Tenex, because they would shoot even better.
If every time I make a post I have to deal with **** like this I'm through, I made a statement obviously it offended you that I said Club shoots very well in my rifle, as good as some lots of MEPS and Tenex and for some reason you think I am not willing to pay for MEPS and Tenex witch I have and probably will again but a 2300 ARA and a 249-17x IR 50/50 with $5 box Club is good enough for me.

Last edited by 1bamashooter; 07-19-2007 at 11:47 PM.
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  #54  
Old 07-20-2007, 09:46 AM
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Guys, Snake HAD a nice thread going here let's not end up getting it shut down for him okay?

The language did get a little sloppy for sure and needed to be corrected but let's not go too far here. It has been corrected and there has been no harm.
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  #55  
Old 07-20-2007, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
The original post wanted to know what made up good ammo.
Uh, not exactly. I KNOW what makes good ammo. I wanted to know what kinds/brands/lines of ammo would give me the most significant increase in accuracy (over bulk) at the most cost-effective price. And we've had some good responses to that question.

Now let's back up to where I was talking about a certain amount of flyers with Fed 510 Champs. My 50 yard groups aren't just randomly or roundly grouped--it seems that there are always 3 or 4 shots in a nice group with one or two flyers. Just got back from the range and here are the actual 5, 4, and 3-shot group measurements of five different 50 yard groups from my CZ 45s:

#1
5--.750
4--.472
3--.200

#2
5--1.045
4--.678
3--.375

#3
5--.440
4--.328
3--.188

#4
5--.875
4--.495
3--.475

#5
5--.925
4--.544
3--.165

Any thoughts?
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  #56  
Old 07-20-2007, 02:08 PM
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Maybe less caffine???

I have day's when I see my heartbeat, give me more movemnt than other's...
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  #57  
Old 07-20-2007, 02:45 PM
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Snake

After looking at those groups, this is what I would guess - based only on what I see in the numbers. Here are some potential causes:

1. Not reading conditions correctly
2. Bedding problem with gun
3. Scope problem
4, Inconsistent shooting technique with rifle.

It seems that the more you shoot, the worse it gets - and it gets really bad fast.

The growth in group size is very dramatic, and that usually points towards shooter or rifle system.

Now I know this next statement with get Vince all twisted up, but the true check for that would to be testing that very same ammunition in a unlimited or 10.5 lb BR gun. If the ammunition were to show the same pattern (pattern - not group size) then you could say it's the ammo. If pattern is not the same, i.e. the groups do not jump around at the same rate, then it's the rifle / shooter.
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  #58  
Old 07-20-2007, 02:48 PM
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I know all but nothing about the manufacturing of ammo, but costs of anything manufactured includes labor, material costs, quality control (more or less labor spent on quality control.)
With all else being nearly equal, the cheaper ammo will have less QC. When I first started my little test, WalMart's Winchester Super X's were among my best, which was surprising for cheap bullets dumped into the box instead of neatly place vertically in cute little plastic holders. Then the fliers started showing up, and making .3" 3 shot groups turn into .8" 5 shot groups. Same as your 510's -- lack of quality control.
And consider what it must cost to have someone sitting on a milking stool, dipping their little artist brush into lube, and lubing each of the more costly bullets. And a QC Supervisor sitting next to them checking lube thickness.
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  #59  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdeig View Post
Then the fliers started showing up, and making .3" 3 shot groups turn into .8" 5 shot groups. Same as your 510's -- lack of quality control.
Which brings us back to the reason I started this thread--I wanted some recommendations of better-quality (though not bank-busting) ammo to see what a few of my better guns will really do.

And Steve B--nice list, but I have at least three rifles that shoot this 510 ammo exactly the same way. Which means either it's the ammo, or I can't shoot for crap, in which case the whole question is pretty much moot, isn't it?

I suppose I should just be happy that I have a gun that will keep MOST rounds of a 2c a shot ammo in 1/2" at 50 yards, eh?

Last edited by Snake45; 07-20-2007 at 06:26 PM.
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  #60  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:35 PM
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The problem

Is that if it was the ammo, some of your biggest groups should be in the 3 and 4 shot range. But they are not, they all evenly get bigger.

If it was the ammo, you should be getting bad shots evenly spready out - you can get two fliers back to back, making your first two shots the widest spread. I found that alot during the data collection for my book. Shots 1 and 2 would be at the far ends, and sometimes it would be 1 and 3, but I have never seen data like yours and be ammunition dependent.

To have all of your groups get evenly worse as more rounds are fired, and be the same among three rifles, then it's the shooter.

Sorry.
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