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  #1  
Old 07-29-2019, 02:31 PM
Mlatimer2017

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Dreams of quality ammo



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I think we 22 magnum fans can all agree that the quality of the ammunition being produced today is rather lacking. With that said what can we as a community do to get manufacturers (mainly CCI) to do something? As a machinist with knowledge of manufacturing I don’t think it would be all that difficult or cost prohibitive to implement some extra QC measures to increase the quality of the ammunition being produced. Cull blemished bullets, inspect the priming with more than a cursory glance, keep seating tolerances tighter, inspect cartridge concentricity. All things that wouldn’t require much to do and would make better ammo. Even if it increased the prices of ammo some I’d gladly pay if it was truly better quality. If cci really wanted to increase the quality of all their ammunition implementing a better priming system would go a long way but I realize that isn’t going to happen. What would it take to get MOA 22 mag ammo? My first born? Rioting in the streets? Instead of releasing relabeled ammo with a different color tip why don’t they give us what we really want. BETTER BOOLITS! Maybe I’m better off saving my pennies until I can afford to open my own plant...
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Old 07-29-2019, 03:08 PM
fourbore
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I find 22 mag vmax will hold the same accuracy as 22 mini-mag at 50 yards in my rifles. (1/2 inch 5 shots on a good day = 1 moa)

In 22LR, I do pay up sometimes for RWS in 22LR, but; most of the time I am happy with CCI Std Vel in LR. With premium ammo, I also need to st my CZ aside and step up to Anschtz to get 1/4 inch groups at 50 yards. To better that, I may need a rifle less than 50 years old. Figure the odds.

It is a logical question, and my negativity is only to point out that I dont buy the 22mag for 1/2 moa target shooting and actually, I dont hunt with 22LR. If I did hunt with 22LR, I would be primarily focused on getting the max performance out of that really tiny round. I dont think I am alone, in saying CCI 22mag quality is good.

You want match grade, ultra premium ammo, $20, 30 40 a box? I have read that there were some cases of 22mag RWS imported? Do you want that? I can find the link, if you are serious. It makes the same size 22 hole in paper.

Last edited by fourbore; 07-29-2019 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 07-29-2019, 03:30 PM
jaia
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RWS 40 grain FMJ and JSP a dollar a cartridge.
Quality reeks, I'd rather shoot Winchester.

None of the manufacturers are going to offer quality 22mwr.
Why? Not intended for precision, just center of critter out to 75 yards.
Not head shots, not 100 yard tree rat skulls.
Center of chest, through the heart and lungs.
If you want precision 22 caliber, they have this updated primer design...it's called centerfire.

Last edited by jaia; 07-29-2019 at 03:36 PM.
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  #4  
Old 07-29-2019, 03:54 PM
Mlatimer2017

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You must have a good lot because in my experience the best 22 mag ammo I have shot was the Hornady stuff and between 3 cz’s one with a Lilja has held 1.25-1.5 moa at 50 and 100. I’m sure most others will agree that 1.25-1.5 moa is pretty standard for 22 mag. I’m not looking for ultra premium match ammo I’m looking for consistent moa or better. I feel like that is reasonable to expect such performance from a cartridge designed for hunting. To hit on your point about getting as much performance as possible out of a small cartridge i completely agree and I think cci could improve in that area for 22 mag as well. They could safely bump velocities for several of their loadings and switch out plated bullets for true jacketed bullets to improve performance. No need to link me the RWS I have already tried 3 different lots 2 earlier lots when the velocity was very high for a 40 grainers and a current lot which is very tame. In all three lots the accuracy 1.25 moa was mediocre for the price.

Last edited by Mlatimer2017; 07-29-2019 at 04:06 PM.
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  #5  
Old 07-30-2019, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
If you want precision 22 caliber, they have this updated primer design...it's called centerfire.
Exactly. If you want to shoot one hole groups at 100 or 200 yd, you may as well start using one of the centerfire .22s and start reloading.
If the cartridge manufacturers start producing match quality .22 mag ammo that will satisfy everyone, It will probably cost as much as a centerfire cartridge so you may as well go to centerfire.

I've been shooting .22 magnum for nearly half a century and can say that these modern cartridges are quite an improvement over some of the earlier offerings. If you are going to enjoy shooting .22 WMR, you need to accept it for what it is.
Personally, I have no issues with this round. It's one of my favorites.
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:06 PM
fourbore
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You must have a good lot because in my experience the best 22 mag ammo I have shot was the Hornady stuff and between 3 czs one with a Lilja has held 1.25-1.5 moa at 50 and 100. Im sure most others will agree that 1.25-1.5 moa is pretty standard for 22 mag.
Obviously, I dont agree. If you made a statement like this around any other round you would get even more push back. My lilja will do 1 moa. AFAIK, Hornady and CCI are made in the same plant. Accuracy varies from lot to lot more than the name on the box. I have not made a big study in this, my impression, FWIW. Some guns will show a preference for bullet weights. Again my casual observation.

Consider this. the 17 HRM is produced with the same bullet technology in the same brass with the same primer. How is the 17 reputation? If you cannot do better than 1.5 MOA with a lilja barrel, the problem is not the ammo.

It may sound like splitting hairs, but; 1.25 moa or under is more than adequate for the 22mag mission. It is a more/less 100 yard hunting round.
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:43 PM
jaia
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I have to add a comment...what with being an annoying old coot.

Don't expect sub-moa accuracy with the 22wmr.
Does it happen? Yes.
Don't expect 1.5 moa accuracy with the 22wmr.
Does it happen? Yes.
Have I produced some very nice results with the 22wmr? Yes.
Will the 22wmr do it every time? No. That's the point to remember.

In order to produce tight groups with the 22wmr I had to go full barrel block.
I had to remove myself from the results to understand the limitations of the cartridge.
With a chronograph out front, and the barrel block rig, I tested and tested again.
50 shots at a time tracking mv's and results. Inspecting cartridges for visible defects.
Watched the video of CCI's rimfire production to understand the assembly process.

At 25 yards it produced great results.
At 50 yards it would produce everything from 5 shot bugholes to 3 inch patterns.
At 100 yards the results ranged from 0.4 inches for 5 shots to 5 inch sprays.
This from a Lilja barrel in a 20 pound test block.
That's how varied the quality is of the 22wmr cartridge.
Look at those cartridges before chambering them. Look for the defects.
Check for dents, dings, bulges, canted seating.
Use a chronograph to understand the vertical spread.
Many of those odd strays are caused by cartridge defects, not the rifles and not us.


Last edited by jaia; 07-30-2019 at 01:55 PM.
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  #8  
Old 07-31-2019, 10:36 AM
skippy4570

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Interesting point. Love your rig btw. The 😁

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
I have to add a comment...what with being an annoying old coot.

Don't expect sub-moa accuracy with the 22wmr.
Does it happen? Yes.
Don't expect 1.5 moa accuracy with the 22wmr.
Does it happen? Yes.
Have I produced some very nice results with the 22wmr? Yes.
Will the 22wmr do it every time? No. That's the point to remember.

In order to produce tight groups with the 22wmr I had to go full barrel block.
I had to remove myself from the results to understand the limitations of the cartridge.
With a chronograph out front, and the barrel block rig, I tested and tested again.
50 shots at a time tracking mv's and results. Inspecting cartridges for visible defects.
Watched the video of CCI's rimfire production to understand the assembly process.

At 25 yards it produced great results.
At 50 yards it would produce everything from 5 shot bugholes to 3 inch patterns.
At 100 yards the results ranged from 0.4 inches for 5 shots to 5 inch sprays.
This from a Lilja barrel in a 20 pound test block.
That's how varied the quality is of the 22wmr cartridge.
Look at those cartridges before chambering them. Look for the defects.
Check for dents, dings, bulges, canted seating.
Use a chronograph to understand the vertical spread.
Many of those odd strays are caused by cartridge defects, not the rifles and not us.

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  #9  
Old 08-01-2019, 07:47 PM
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Elwood 1964
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You didn't tell us what you are shooting or ammo you are testing. Would you please fill im some gaps so we can have a conversation?

I'm with the gang here that both of my .22WMR are for plinking and critters. As long as I can make a humane kill I have accomplished my goal. I never even gave it any thought about that type of accuracy from those two rigs, but now I will start to look closer at my ammo choices. Dont get me wrong I always strive for MOA groups but I always end up with fair grouos instead.

The places I shop and sites I look at I have never seen RWS or anything close to that available.
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  #10  
Old 08-01-2019, 08:46 PM
jaia
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El, here's a link to my current hobby.
Trying as many brands of rimfire I can put my hands on.
These are all the magnum flavors.

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...93&postcount=3

The entire post is in the RFC Long Range section ...50 at 200

Last edited by jaia; 08-01-2019 at 09:10 PM.
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  #11  
Old 08-01-2019, 11:31 PM
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22 mag runs about 20 cents a round. The cheapest 22 Hornet is PPU at 40 cents a round. PPU is usually very good ammo. If you want consistent sub MOA get a Hornet and start reloading. It costs about 20 cents or a little less a round to reload. Not much powder. My 223 handloads are sub MOA in my Mossberg MVP.
I have one 22 mag rifle that shoots sub MOA with Winchester 40 grain. I was given a couple of boxes or I probably would not have tried it. Total surprise. Next time I take it out I will try some of the 30 grain ammo and some other brands to compare.
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Old 08-02-2019, 07:46 AM
jaia
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I question your narrow focus.

Y'er allowed.

Nothing I do is done under laboratory conditions.
I shoot outdoors, from an old wood bench, across a ballistic chronograph, with a home tweaked CZ 455
I show exactly how I'm shooting, where I'm shooting and include wind speed and direction.
I post all my results from the entire box of 50. I don't try to pretend that a few decent 5 shot groups
are anything other than random acts of accuracy. I will not pretend to be anything other
than just another interested amateur. I just lack tolerance for forum posts claiming amazing accuracy
"all day long" with any cartridge that isn't manufactured in a way so as to sustain those claims.

I hunt. I chase tree rats, floppy ears and feral hogs.
I test the ammo at a local range, from a rest, and the results are better
than what will happen when wandering around outdoors in the brush.
I offer my opinions based on real world results, from using all the available brands of rimfire.
Surprisingly, I receive pm's thanking me for all that data.
Folks who had bought a 22 wmr or 17 hmr based on internet bragging,
who didn't comprehend why their results were not as amazing.

You'll note I don't add to topics I have little experience with.
No 10/22 posts, no Anschutz, S&W, BRNO or Sako comments.
I comment on ammunition threads, CZ 455 threads, rimfire accuracy threads
so I suppose that does produce a narrow focus. I post on what I've experienced.
Nothing else...except for wize adze comments, so I'm not taken too seriously.

Last edited by jaia; 08-02-2019 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 08-02-2019, 11:14 AM
mongochicago
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[QUOTE=jaia;11561909] I question your narrow focus.


I post all my results from the entire box of 50. I don't try to pretend that a few decent 5 shot groups
are anything other than random acts of accuracy. I just lack tolerance for forum posts claiming amazing accuracy.

Some good points, but also some debatable ones. First off, I think that shooting a lot of rounds and achieving a good group is as much indicative of your shooting skills and stamina as ammo quality. Differences in lots apply to ALL ammo, centerfire included. In my case, I shot Hornady V-Max (yes a whole box each time) and got 2 sub minute groups and one minute group on 3 separate occasions with three different rifles at 100 yards. I also got prairie dogs at 130 yards. It took more than one shot but I am TERRIBLE at wind judging, and I feel like that is the cause. As I said, no ammo shoots "sub minute" always, if it did everyone would always shoot perfectly.

I have been in the shooting sports for 46 years. Hunted and competed in ATA trap, NRA highpower rifle, NRA pistol, and combat. I consider myself average. Just wanted to say that you base your opinions on your experiences and I base mine on my experiences. Neither is more valid than the other. To write every one off that disagrees with your opinions is acting like - please forgive me - a Democrat. Also, you may have a gun that just doesn't like most ammo. I am not a big fan of CZ anyway.
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Old 08-02-2019, 12:33 PM
jaia
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I'm here for the debate...always willing to listen to contrary opinions.
Especially when there's documentation to back up the comments.


you may have a gun that just doesn't like most ammo.

That happens to be one of the comments open for further discussion.
I have not found that particular problem with any of my rifles or pistols.
I've found ammunition quality to be the true irritation.
Either the ammunition was made properly or it wasn't.
Large variations in muzzle velocities or cartridge defects cause strays.
Only way to avoid those effects is to keep the shots at minimal distances.
In the woods 99% of my shots are less than 75 feet.
Only place I push the limits is at the range.

Wind will always have an effect....especially when there's turbulence.

Last edited by jaia; 08-02-2019 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 08-02-2019, 11:53 PM
Terrierman
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I shoot a Ruger All Weather 77/22 WMR. Tried multi varieties of CCI, Winchester, Federal and Remington ammunition in the rifle. Can't get any CCI under 2 inches at 50 yards. Winchester Dynapoint even worse. Winchester 40 gr HP silver box is under 2 inches but never under 1.5 inches. Federal premium much the same. But, put 33 grain Remington premier to the test and it's noticeably better, usually close to or a little under an inch at 50 yards. Stock rifle except for the trigger spring. YMMV but that's my experience. Off a bench with sandbags.
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