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  #16  
Old 09-04-2014, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markbo View Post
Amen! Like I'd like to have that rifle in my safe.

That ain't happenin' either!
Everything has a price.

Just like those discontinued Jewell triggers do for the 10/22 and so help me if I ever find one, you better believe it's going to be mine.
  #17  
Old 09-04-2014, 07:00 PM
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So what's the point? If you're shooting benchrest, the semi-auto feature should be meaningless to you. If you're not, and you're out handling your rifle in more action-oriented situations, such a light trigger seems pointless - and unsafe. I don't get it.
  #18  
Old 09-04-2014, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiremanBob View Post
So what's the point? If you're shooting benchrest, the semi-auto feature should be meaningless to you. If you're not, and you're out handling your rifle in more action-oriented situations, such a light trigger seems pointless - and unsafe. I don't get it.

There are semi auto benchrest classes and currently that's the only class I am incapable of winning at my range simply because a stock 597 doesn't fit the bill. I don't want the rifle to spray bullets, but to only fit in a classification. So "meaningless" would be an ignorantly applied word.

Action oriented? Any experienced and aware shooter can handle a light trigger and not be unsafe. Just because you would be unsafe does not mean I would be. I've shot plenty of free hand silhouette with my 1.5oz Jewell trigger on my 40X and Vostok CM2 which has a trigger in the 3-5oz range (I don't have a gauge that will read that low). The Vostok is iron sights for crying out loud.

You don't have to get it. Just because it's not what you think it should be doesn't mean your ideals are the only option. I acknowledged that I would clearly be in a minority and was simply asking for options and discussing them. You've been far from helpful so why don't you try excusing yourself from the thread?
  #19  
Old 09-05-2014, 05:54 AM
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So you're building an ABRA rifle? That's a fine sport - good luck with it. It sounds like you should be a national champion immediately.

I was thinking more of hunting and other field uses of the rifle, not silhouette which I consider to be a range sport, like benchrest.

Do you always take questions as though they were personal challenges? Mine were not meant that way. Good luck finding what you want. Perhaps Brimstone, Kidd, CPC or another smith could customize a trigger for you?
  #20  
Old 09-05-2014, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiremanBob View Post
Do you always take questions as though they were personal challenges? Mine were not meant that way.
No, I didn't take them as personal challenges; I took them for the condescending statements that they were. Even your most recent post in this thread carries that torch in a sadly proud way.

Quote:
So you're building an ABRA rifle? That's a fine sport - good luck with it. It sounds like you should be a national champion immediately.
My point exactly.

Quote:
I was thinking more of hunting and other field uses of the rifle, not silhouette which I consider to be a range sport, like benchrest.
And that's all well and good if that is the truth, but had any attention been paid to the context of the thread, you would have known that your initial assumption wouldn't be applicable.

Quote:
Good luck finding what you want. Perhaps Brimstone, Kidd, CPC or another smith could customize a trigger for you?
This is what the thread was intended to be about.

CPC I've seen a good bit of information on, but doesn't seem to cater towards what I'm looking for.

Brimstone I haven't heard of. I'm contacting them now about more details on their Tier 1 trigger job. Tier 1 and 2 don't seem to list any specific information about the pull weight so I'm worried that those jobs will maintain the 2lbs that Tier 3 brings to the table. In any event, I'm emailing them now. Thank you!
  #21  
Old 09-05-2014, 11:01 AM
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For the record there are a number of issues, but one of the biggest is actually the trigger return spring.

On any semi auto firearm you pull the trigger, hammer is released, gun cycles, and then you have some sort of disconector or 'secondary sear' which captures the hammer while the trigger is still pulled. The trigger return spring needs to be strong enough to push the trigger forward, transferring control of the hammer from the disconector to the primary sear. There's a number of parts which all need to work and move there. As well, as was mentioned before, the fairly violent action of the gun cycling does require more engagement, resulting in higher pull weights.

On a bolt action, you are manually lowering the striker against the sear. When you lift the bolt, the sear lifts out of the way of the trigger, so the trigger return spring only needs to be strong enough to overcome the friction of the trigger rotating on it's pin. And since you are manually lowering everything, it's going to be much more gentle than a semi auto, allowing you to get away with virtually no engagement. This is why some of the new Savages have engraved on the receiver a warning to close the bolt gently.

So if the Jewell triggers were 6oz, and the Kidd two stage is 3 and 3, that's the same thing. Two stage triggers will always feel lighter than a single stage, because it allows you to compress the trigger return spring first, then ADD another 3oz to disengage the hammer. On a single stage you have to deal with both movements at the same time, resulting in a 6oz trigger. It's just that the two stage is a more reliable design. Honestly I understood that Jewell discontinued their triggers because they weren't that reliable, customer modification aside.

We have some trigger designs floating around that might allow us to get that light, but it's strictly theory at this point. It'll probably be a couple of years before we even get a prototype built. And at that point... who knows if they'll actually work? Always worth a shot though
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  #22  
Old 09-05-2014, 11:57 AM
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Doodaddy,

Since you're thinking of taking the dive into auto benchrest, I'm very much willing to bet a cold one that if you build yourself a nice rifle and put a KIDD 2-stage in it that you'll fall in love with it!
Sure, it's not going to be as sweet as your bolt gun and I can see how that might spoil a guy.
Mine is set at or near 5/5 oz. and I can now shoot free-recoil without disturbing the sights.
I'm looking through a Weaver T36, so I'm guessing that's enough magnification to tell if the sight picture is changing while pulling the trigger.
Another way to look at it; there won't be anyone else at the match with a trigger any better than the KIDD, so the rest would be up to you!
I hope you decide to take the plunge.

Cheers,
Dave
  #23  
Old 09-05-2014, 01:11 PM
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Im glad Brimstone piped in. I couldnt have explained it that clearly. The end of the day if you are expecting to find a trigger for a semi auto that is apples to apples with a benchrest bolt gun the only thing you will find is disappointment. If you would try a Kidd 2 stage before dismissing it ( thats called contempt before investigation) i believe you will very happy. I have both and I am very happy with my Kidd. Like a really old Alkaselzer commercial said.."Try it..you'll like it!"

FWiW i didnt read any attitude into Fireman Bobs first message. If everyone presumes the other guy is playing nice we all play nice. K?
  #24  
Old 09-05-2014, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brimstone View Post
For the record there are a number of issues, but one of the biggest is actually the trigger return spring.

On any semi auto firearm you pull the trigger, hammer is released, gun cycles, and then you have some sort of disconector or 'secondary sear' which captures the hammer while the trigger is still pulled. The trigger return spring needs to be strong enough to push the trigger forward, transferring control of the hammer from the disconector to the primary sear. There's a number of parts which all need to work and move there. As well, as was mentioned before, the fairly violent action of the gun cycling does require more engagement, resulting in higher pull weights.

On a bolt action, you are manually lowering the striker against the sear. When you lift the bolt, the sear lifts out of the way of the trigger, so the trigger return spring only needs to be strong enough to overcome the friction of the trigger rotating on it's pin. And since you are manually lowering everything, it's going to be much more gentle than a semi auto, allowing you to get away with virtually no engagement. This is why some of the new Savages have engraved on the receiver a warning to close the bolt gently.

So if the Jewell triggers were 6oz, and the Kidd two stage is 3 and 3, that's the same thing. Two stage triggers will always feel lighter than a single stage, because it allows you to compress the trigger return spring first, then ADD another 3oz to disengage the hammer. On a single stage you have to deal with both movements at the same time, resulting in a 6oz trigger. It's just that the two stage is a more reliable design. Honestly I understood that Jewell discontinued their triggers because they weren't that reliable, customer modification aside.

We have some trigger designs floating around that might allow us to get that light, but it's strictly theory at this point. It'll probably be a couple of years before we even get a prototype built. And at that point... who knows if they'll actually work? Always worth a shot though
I expected hurdles, but I still want(wanted) to exhaust all options and efforts. I figured the utilization of the two stage was to make the trigger being safe easier overall, but was hoping that there was some extra effort somewhere for a single stage trigger to available. No harm.

Savage's target trigger is not bad, but they won't sell one without it being attached to one of their actions. I wanted one for a model 12 BVSS, but they wouldn't sell it outright.

I understand the concept of a two stage trigger appearing lighter due to the inherent operation of it. If I were needing a heavier trigger (near 2lbs), I then would actually prefer it despite the take up. For the purpose of this rifle, there will not be any restrictions on trigger weight so I would prefer no creep, travel, or any movement at all.

When you have a prototype, I'm more than interested in it. That's exciting to see!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosnil22 View Post
Doodaddy,

Since you're thinking of taking the dive into auto benchrest, I'm very much willing to bet a cold one that if you build yourself a nice rifle and put a KIDD 2-stage in it that you'll fall in love with it!
Sure, it's not going to be as sweet as your bolt gun and I can see how that might spoil a guy.
Mine is set at or near 5/5 oz. and I can now shoot free-recoil without disturbing the sights.
I'm looking through a Weaver T36, so I'm guessing that's enough magnification to tell if the sight picture is changing while pulling the trigger.
Another way to look at it; there won't be anyone else at the match with a trigger any better than the KIDD, so the rest would be up to you!
I hope you decide to take the plunge.

Cheers,
Dave
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markbo View Post
Im glad Brimstone piped in. I couldnt have explained it that clearly. The end of the day if you are expecting to find a trigger for a semi auto that is apples to apples with a benchrest bolt gun the only thing you will find is disappointment. If you would try a Kidd 2 stage before dismissing it ( thats called contempt before investigation) i believe you will very happy. I have both and I am very happy with my Kidd. Like a really old Alkaselzer commercial said.."Try it..you'll like it!"

FWiW i didnt read any attitude into Fireman Bobs first message. If everyone presumes the other guy is playing nice we all play nice. K?
I'm glad Brimstone got involved as well. I like vendor involvement as well as their intentions in the future to possibly develop something that is a bit more in line with what I'm looking for. That sort of presence is invaluable.

While I never fully expected identical performance and options for this rifle in comparison to more traditional benchrest rifles, I would remiss if I didn't perform due diligence in at least trying to get as close as I can. I have high standards for myself as well as the items I enjoy be it whatever I'm involved with.

I haven't preemptively dismissed the Kidd 2 stage. It's just not what I'm wanting and I had(have) concerns that it will not allow me to arrive at my goal. Not my fault. Not anyone here's fault. Certainly not Tony's fault. This thread isn't negative toward Tony's trigger simply because I have some concerns about how well it will work for me. I wanted to ensure my research landed at the best option.


That being said, I feel a bit more comfortable now than I did earlier. I've been PMing with a user that has some experience in the direction I'm looking to go and his results are promising. While I have no expectations of loving the trigger (Again, not the trigger's fault. I fully admit that I'm jaded), I think it might work. Seeing above that someone is able to do it with a 5/5 trigger encourages me as well.

My rest system is a very low resistance set up and with this rifle being 40% lighter than my BR bolt gun with a trigger breaking 4 times heavier, I had(have) worries about the rifle moving in the rest when attempting to shoot in a true free recoil fashion. If I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I could successfully shoot free recoil with a 10lb rifle with a 6oz trigger (albeit two stage) in a straightline stock, this thread would likely not have been started. There is no one around me I can call and ask to try out a similar rifle before hand, so I'm stuck looking around and asking questions. The user I've PMed with has a near identical rest system and he is able to do what I want, so I'm starting to get excited about the build again.

So it's back to stock designing talk with Turmite.

FWIW, I do read attitude in his posts and I still do not appreciate it in any facet. I'm thankful for his mentioning Brimstone, but beyond that single instance, I feel that his posts were detrimental to my thread. I play very nice as I feel it is conducive to positive outcomes, but I feel respect is important as well.
  #25  
Old 09-05-2014, 01:50 PM
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If I ever intend attitude in a post, it will be unmistakable. I hope your conversations with the expert gunsmiths are successful, and that you will report the results in this thread.
  #26  
Old 09-05-2014, 04:20 PM
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One tiny tiny bit of help is the trigger reset spring David mentioned (I guess it was David?). Without that spring a simple push forward would reset it. An ounce here, an ounce there...
  #27  
Old 09-05-2014, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markbo View Post
One tiny tiny bit of help is the trigger reset spring David mentioned (I guess it was David?). Without that spring a simple push forward would reset it. An ounce here, an ounce there...
Interesting thought.

I would be fully on board with a manual reset trigger if I got the trigger I wanted. That would eliminate any safety issues and would allow me to have the featherweight break in a single stage.
  #28  
Old 09-09-2014, 08:25 PM
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There was a guy working on an electric trigger which could work the way you are looking for. I know he built a few but don't know if he ever got into production but might be worth the look.
  #29  
Old 09-09-2014, 09:24 PM
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I've heard of but never shot a manual reset single stage trigger. It'd be an easy thing to do and won't cost a fortune. I say go for it.

Jard makes a VERY nice trigger for the 597. it's advertised as 1lb but mine is lighter and VERY smooth.

http://jardinc.com/index.php?option=...2:597&Itemid=4

I know you wanted the 10/22 but you mentioned the 597 and this trigger works.
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  #30  
Old 09-09-2014, 09:41 PM
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https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...rigger&page=27

10 grams, 0.100mm travel. I don't think you will find a lighter shorter single stage. You can, of course, add travel and weight at the range with gun fully assembled using only a jewelers screwdriver. And, you can dry fire at home and hear the breakpoint for feedback.
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