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  #16  
Old 03-14-2013, 04:14 PM
azguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankW View Post
Hi noremf,

I know you like the water sand-in technique and it may be wonderful for finishing fine furniture but it is not anything I would use on a gun stock. Especially with all the trouble Azguy had filling the pores in his stock using the water/slurry technique.

The purpose of finishing a stock is to offer some level of protection to the wood and some level of water resistance. Filling a stock with sub-straight using a water carrier offers zero water resistance to the stock. When a stock is finished using a Poly/varnish the pores being filed with the Poly does offer some level of water resistance. It is my experience that the Poly filled pores helps to provide a level of water resistance with out a big build up of finish on the surface of the stock. While your technique is interesting, I will stick with what has been proven by our premier stock makers who do this for a living.

You are correct in that we are talking about two different techniques and not necessarily that one is good or one is bad, just different. Everyone has to find what works for them.

Frank
OK, first off, the statement, "Especially with all the trouble Azguy had filling the pores in his stock using the water/slurry technique". Nope, not going with that at all. Possibly thye use of the wording is based on misunderstanding my wording in a thread. So, to clear that up.......
Filling the pores was far from a lot of trouble when using the sanding slurry with water method. Second, to say that doing so affords the blank virtually no protection from water. That isn't what the pore filling is for and any gain from using the finish to fill versus a water / wood slurry simply is not enough of a gain to say yay or nay. In other words, not a deal breaker. All I can say is I can DEFINITELY feel a difference in doing it with the finish in the way Frank describes and doing it with the water slurry technique George states. Effort wise? The water wood slurry method is easier and when done the stock feels "soft" and as smooth as a sheet of glass. It does take more time and time is money to a person who make a living off their stocks. Doesn't make using the "usual" method wrong. Not at all. Just saying that just because something is down one way doesn't make that the ONLY way to do something. I know a lot of furniture that uses butt joints instead of dovetail joints. Why? It is easier and much faster. And it is adequate to the needs of the application. Personally, adequate doesn't do it for me. But I will probably use BOTH methods, depending on the quality of the wood. Until I see something for MYSELF, that makes one method far superior to the other, that is what I intend to do.

As Frank states, "Everyone has to find what works for them".
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  #17  
Old 03-14-2013, 04:33 PM
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Hi azguy,

I guess trouble filling the pores was my impression from the many times you had to sand the stock to get the pores full. To me, if you can't fill the pores with three or four, no more than five sandings, you are having problems. Especially with Maple and its relative small pores. If you make hunting stocks you need every bit of water resistance you can get.

I can understand using a water/slurry technique for a blond wood if you want to keep the exact color of the wood. With walnut most customers want the yellow/gold tint that Poly gives to the stock.

Frank
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  #18  
Old 03-14-2013, 06:05 PM
azguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankW View Post
Hi azguy,

I guess trouble filling the pores was my impression from the many times you had to sand the stock to get the pores full. To me, if you can't fill the pores with three or four, no more than five sandings, you are having problems. Especially with Maple and its relative small pores. If you make hunting stocks you need every bit of water resistance you can get.

I can understand using a water/slurry technique for a blond wood if you want to keep the exact color of the wood. With walnut most customers want the yellow/gold tint that Poly gives to the stock.

Frank
I used the mehtod on some maple as well but only 2 or 3 times. I did not stop when I thought the pores were filled. I went an extra one or two times to be sure. Did I need to? Probably not but, since I had the time, why not.

And I got a feeling this method and a good finish will be more than enough protection and at the very least, on par with other methods. But looks wise I think with the right wood, it will surpass other methods. Just have to wait and see. Like I said, I will use both methods.
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  #19  
Old 06-18-2013, 09:26 AM
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Keep from archiving

Keep from archiving.

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  #20  
Old 06-18-2013, 09:30 AM
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Color cast

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankW View Post
Hi azguy,

I guess trouble filling the pores was my impression from the many times you had to sand the stock to get the pores full. To me, if you can't fill the pores with three or four, no more than five sandings, you are having problems. Especially with Maple and its relative small pores. If you make hunting stocks you need every bit of water resistance you can get.

I can understand using a water/slurry technique for a blond wood if you want to keep the exact color of the wood. With walnut most customers want the yellow/gold tint that Poly gives to the stock.

Frank
The slurry sanding is stock prep. If you put on a reactive topcoat of which Poly is one, you are still gonna get the yellow/gold color cast.

noremf(George)
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  #21  
Old 06-23-2013, 04:43 PM
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Thought I would report in on something I tried today that worked pretty good. (using water)

I wet sanded as usual, but then wrapped a wet piece of denim around the backer.
The denim is stout enough that it wont stretch on the backer and it immediately filled with the slurry. Was able to drive the slurry into the pores much better than anything I had tried in the past. Circular motion seemed to work the best.
Worked kinda like a squeegee, but didnt pull anything back out because it was already loaded with slurry, even going with the grain.
Trick was to keep it wet by dipping frequently.
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  #22  
Old 06-24-2013, 08:39 PM
JoeBobber
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Man I really appreciate the value and experience that you guys bring. I do what I remember from shop class in High school, as I am a metal guy, but I have been doing more stuff with wood. It's great to get info from such experts. Thank you guys. Joe
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  #23  
Old 06-25-2013, 08:13 AM
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Slurry Sanding et al

Lot of the stuff I post and is experimented with by guys like azguy and oldblades and outlinkk, just to name 3, has been around for hundreds if not thousands of years and perfected during that time but has been forgotten or bypassed mostly because of the technological advancements and the on going desire to do something faster.

Things like rubbing out and polishing using grades of lava stone called Rottenstone and Pumice stone. French polishing. Slurry sanding. Fillers vs Hardeners. Natural waxes. etc. Slurry sanding was originally done with lava stones, not the powder, and is still done by today by folks in Japan who make the Katana (Samurai) blades the ancient way. Some stones are only used in a single pass. Got to see some of that when in Japan. No wonder those things cost so much.

French polishing, using today's tight weave Irish linen or raw silk will give you finish that you think you can walk through. Litterally 100's of hours labor time though and if you had it on a gunstock you might never want to shoot it for fear of screwing it up.

IMO and IME, all of the above and more have given and continue to give superior results then the synthetic equivalents but you pay in extra labor time, not normally that large, and extra clock time for the results to cure etc, which is normally quite a bit longer.

Obviously not processes you are gonna use like on knotty pine or "tiger" birch but I have seen birch and beech, especially what is called Apple Birch, which has a distinct color and very tight grain, and no "stripes" that has had as much stock prep as any exhibition or museum grade walnut.

noremf(George)

TRIVIA:

Relative to Oldblades use of denim type of cloth was the most common grade for thousands of years. Earliest reported with that type of weave goes back 30,000 years.

It is made from flax, yup the same stuff that Linseed Oil is made from. The fibers were used to make the cloth, still used today, and the Oil was and is a food additive and a paint binder. Never used as a wood finish.

Took about a year to make the cloth but was very inexpensive since the labor to make it was free, if you get my drift.

The middle grade was used almost exclusively for like the Hebrew slaves in Egypt and was the model for today's denim. Higher grades of almost linen quality went to the folks that had the moola. Lowest grade, like a burlap weave was used for sacking.

That grade, gonna call it the denim grade, when mixed with Rottenstone or Pumice and as Oldblades says, kept wet, was also used on polishing marble a lot. Clothes go in the tank. . . . . use the pieces to polish stuff.

Lower grades which was akin to burlap loaded up too much and higher line grades were too expensive.

The cotton used in today's denim and other cloth did not even get widespread usage until the early 1700's and was considered a luxury in Rome, along with Silk as cotton farming in Italy was almost unheard of.

Maybe Oldblades has been reincarnated back from the oooooooooooold days. Spooky music plays.

Last edited by noremf; 06-25-2013 at 10:37 AM.
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  #24  
Old 06-25-2013, 09:04 AM
Oldblades
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noremf View Post
Maybe Oldblades has been reincarnated back from the oooooooooooold days.
That explains why I feel so old.

That is good stuff you just posted. Regarding the use of old clothes, you may have figured by now that one corner of my shop looks like a goodwill store.
I actually kept the old jeans around, because I like 'em for burnishing and rubbing, but this was a new one.
Never would have thought it went that far back.
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  #25  
Old 06-25-2013, 11:32 AM
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"Ancient" stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldblades View Post
That explains why I feel so old.

That is good stuff you just posted. Regarding the use of old clothes, you may have figured by now that one corner of my shop looks like a goodwill store.
I actually kept the old jeans around, because I like 'em for burnishing and rubbing, but this was a new one.
Never would have thought it went that far back.
None, or very limited stuff, today is new. All of it goes way back my friend.

You wanna boggle your mind, go to lunch or talk to a chemist in a chemical coatings company. . . at least back in the 60's-70's.

When I worked at the Sherwin Williams Co. I worked in Chicago and the Steudal Center was one of the most advanced research centers of the time on the planet. Was in contact with those folks almost daily.

One of the things I always remember, and knowing you you might try one day, was a demonstration on how to "air brush" on a topcoat/finish using a hollow reed and blowing on one end after it was dipped, other end before you screw up, in a paint, dye, lacquer or in-solution wax and in some cases in-solution resins.

Chemist showed me that and said the technique was developed by the Cro-Magnon folks. Discover on cave paintings.

How's that for old?

In fact the venturi tube, which you use sometimes in your woodworking, was developed by the Greeks.

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 06-25-2013 at 11:38 PM.
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  #26  
Old 06-25-2013, 04:13 PM
Oldblades
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Hmmm. I love learning that kind of stuff, so thanks for that.
But, of course you know, none of that would have been developed if they had Tru-Oil back then.
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  #27  
Old 07-16-2013, 04:31 PM
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Remington Mdl 721...222 Restock Project

Awhile back I ran across a Remington 721 in near new condition but with a badly cracked factory stock. I purchased the rifle with the intention of restocking it and adding yet another 222 to my varmint rifle battery. I was able to locate an old Bishop stock and inletted it to the action, glass bedded it and gave it a new trigger job. It shoots sub MOA groups. Here's how it turned out:
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