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Old 02-11-2010, 08:09 PM
Messer454
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Any semi auto military trainers?



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I have been on RFC for awhile but never realized there was a training rifle forum until I went searching for it!! I asked this over on the CMP Forum too.

I used a .22 converter in a M16 when I was in ROTC. Other than that were ..22 semi autos used at all as official trainers?
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:56 PM
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I don't recall one for the US, except the M16 conversion kit. Remember, our first regular issue battle rifle was the Garand, (M1 Carbine) and then the M14 select fire battle rifle and then the M16 family of weapons. The only one I remember was the conversion kit for the M16.
We had a great semi auto and full auto (select fire) rifle in WWI but it wasn't regular issue. In fact, it's usage was held back awhile because our military was afraid the Germans would copy it. It is the BAR, a basic mechanism that is inverted and currently used in the best general purpose machine gun ever built, the MAG 58 also known as the M240.
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:09 PM
MK111
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There are actualy two .22LR conversions for the M16. There is the Army conversion and the Air Force conversion. Both were developed at the same time by both both services. I guess it is like the right hand doesn't like what the left is doing.

Boy was I asleep at the keyboard. Must be my cold I have. I have a Win 1903 US marked, a Win 1903 British marked, a H&R 65 & a H&R 65 MC-58 Improved, and also a Win 74 British marked threaded for a silencer with Parker-Hales scope bases. So yes as stated there were semi-auto rifles used for training purposes.

Last edited by MK111; 02-12-2010 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:28 AM
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http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Wincheste..._%20rifles.htm

If you have a look at this article you will see the Winchester 74 was used in the UK on the lend lease basis as a sniper rifle by resistance forces in the event of England being invaded by the Germans inWWII .

Dave
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Old 02-12-2010, 05:12 AM
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the usa also used winchester model 1903 , harrington + richardson model 65 + 58 - cmp has a book available , us martial 22rf rifles by thomas d bartha for about $10.00 - some minor errors in it , but still worth the price -
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:58 AM
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Thanks guys, great info.
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Old 02-12-2010, 01:33 PM
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This is probably from the wrong side of the world but FAL/L1A1's had semi auto .22 kits for training called L12A1. In NZ they were only used as part of a tank training simulator, other countries may have used for cadets. Here's my 1968 L1A1

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Old 02-12-2010, 04:45 PM
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That is very cool. I want one!
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Old 02-12-2010, 05:14 PM
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Germany had a .22 kit for the G3, it came in a neat wooden box.
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:15 PM
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I realize you are talking rifles, but I've been told High Standard pistols were used to some extent for training in WWII.
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:58 PM
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Yes, I have a very nice High Standard .22 pistol that is US marked. They were used as trainers in WW2.
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:23 PM
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I have Army Manual TM 9-1005-206-14P/3 dated 1963 and it listed the High Standard Spermatic Citation, HS Supermatic Tournament .
Also there is some evidence that the Military used some Rem 550 during WW11and some Win 74.
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  #13  
Old 02-20-2010, 07:49 PM
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Here is an excerpt from this site:

http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_EM1.html

"Erma-Werke developed and produced the E M1 carbine in .22 long rifle caliber for use as a training rifle by the German Bundeswehr (security forces, aka military), which was founded in 1955 and began operations in 1956. The E M1 was also adopted for training by the Austrian Gendarmerie, who had obtained over 10,000 U.S. M1 carbines 1955-1957. What is not known is when the E M1 was first developed and how many were manufactured for the Bundeswehr and Austrian Gendarmerie. The Germans were already looking for their own military rifle. By the early 1960's the Bundeswehr was phasing out their M1 carbines and replacing them with the G3 rifle. The M1 carbines were retained several years for reserve forces. The Austrian Gendarmerie used their U.S. M1 carbines until 1992."

ERMA continued to produce the E M1 22 for commercial export to several countries. They were distributed by several importers in the U.S. begining around 1966.

" Erma was selling large quantities of the E M1's and the less common ESG 22(.22 Magnum) to countries other than the United States. Information from a long time corporate executive at Wischo indicated Erma made several hundred thousand E M1's and variations. The Model E M1 was Erma Werke's best selling gun, throughout their entire history."

Regards, Hud

Last edited by Hud105; 02-20-2010 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 02-20-2010, 08:56 PM
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HUD:
You beat me to it...I was looking for the link on the ERMA. Mine is s/n 10xx with a '66 proof date and no importers marking. Maybe one of the original commercial offerings. Musta' just made it under the wire before Iver-Johnson (?) started putting their name on it. I saw a link on 'open rimfire' here IIRC that said that the EM-1 was used as a trainer in New Zealand. Nice looking, shooting rifle and not too finiciky about which ammo to use.

JOHNC
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  #15  
Old 02-20-2010, 09:44 PM
Hud105
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JOHN,

You've got a really early one.
Mine is the highest SN, '69 proofed recorded on the Erma site.
The most accurate, box-stock .22 semi-auto I own. (I have more than a few)
That rifle dispatched a lot of jack rabbits when I worked on a grape vineyard back in the '70s.

Hud

Last edited by Hud105; 02-20-2010 at 09:47 PM.
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