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  #46  
Old 05-24-2019, 04:40 PM
M52E1
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Personally, I don't really understand why the high velocity accuracy vs. standard velocity never seems to end. Some additional items to consider:

- I have been shooting outdoor prone matches for 35 year (US and UK) and the total number of times I have witness experienced competitors using HV ammunition is zero
- The only time I have ever witnessed someone shooting HV was a kid whose parents had some reason purchased Remington Golden bullets and that is what the kid used.

- High Velocity has never been made to the same specifications as standard velocity or match ammunition as it was primarily meant to go fast for use by the shooter. On that note, take a quality rifle and shoot at 100 yards with CCI standard velocity vs. Eley Match / Center-X, etc and see what happens. You get what you pay for with .22 ammunition and match ammunition is more expensive as the requirements are more stringent

- As previously noted the wind deflection with HV ammunition is significantly more than with standard velocity. I will add that even with standard velocity ammunition the wind deflection with a round traveling at 1,090 FPS vs. 1,055 FPS is significant. Most R-50 is around 1,100 FPS it can be very tricky to use in medium to high velocity winds

About 12 years ago I purchased eight bricks of R-100 for one of my rifles and if the wind is less than 5 mph then it really shines. However as the wind velocity goes up the results at 100 yards look more like a shotgun was used. I tried it one at Perry in 10-15 mph winds at 100 yards and ironically the first shot was an X, then the next 20 or so never even came close to the X ring, so I broke out some Eley Match 1,054 FPS and finished the target. I still have several bricks of the R-100 and probably will for some time as working with a high velocity match round is a lot more work than a traditional .22 match round. Its performance beyond 50 yards is just not reliable.

Bill
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  #47  
Old 05-24-2019, 04:51 PM
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The best over 1200fps ammo I have shot for accuracy has been Eley Force. But it still won't compete with Eley Match.
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  #48  
Old 05-24-2019, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottom Gun View Post
Thatís very interesting because I would have thought the wind would have more time to influence the slower SV ammo since the flight time is longer.

Today would be an ideal time to test this theory since the forecast here is for 20-30 mph winds but, the wind speed and direction keeps varying. The winds in these canyons are constantly swirling.
I suppose I could use a streamer of some kind to monitor the wind direction but I donít know how I could determine if the wind speed is consistent from one group to the next without some kind of instrument.

It would be interesting to throw some 40 gr .22 magnum into the mix as well if I could only determine how to clock the varying wind speed.
From years ago high velocity always killed rats better than standard velocity. I just shoot HV in case something bad needs an attitude adjustment and HV is really good adjusting bad attudes.
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  #49  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:23 PM
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For those of us who don't compete the burning question really is- "how much difference does it really make?". Will it be minute of squirrel head at 100 yards, or??????

I'm quite aware of what competitors shoot, but for those of us who only compete against ourselves and the sneaky squirrels and rats, will it be better to use the SV or the harder hitting HV HP at moderate ranges... Of course, only personal testing with our own firearms will really tell the story..

Bob
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  #50  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottom Gun View Post
Thatís very interesting because I would have thought the wind would have more time to influence the slower SV ammo since the flight time is longer.
With aerodynamic centerfire bullets, the higher the velocity, the less the wind drift (all other factors remaining equal). This is counterintuitive.

It simply does not work that way with .22 rimfire bullets which have the aerodynamics of a trash can.

I cannot explain the physics but the flight of 40 gr .22 LR ammo has been studied in depth by the USArmy Ballistics Research Lab at Aberdeen Proving Grounds.

The BRL concluded standard velocity .22 has less wind drift than high velocity.

Visit your state championship for smallbore - conventional, metric, F-class or benchrest and if you find any high velocity ammo on the line it will be in the hands of a junior or beginner who does not know any better.
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  #51  
Old 05-25-2019, 11:59 AM
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Playing with the physics, aerodynamics, and reading through the calculations,
a possible explanation occurred to me. Friction, velocity, spin, mass can all be computed
and accounted for. Only variable that can't is surface area. Increased surface area
would explain the increased susceptibility to wind drift. At subsonic velocities
there is minimal atmosheric compression taking place. There's room for the molecules
to deflect away from and around the projectiles. At supersonic speeds a laminar skin
of air molecules forms around the nose and sides of the bullet, increasing the apparent
surface area. Think of it as a sail, which allows increased loading from deflective wind forces
resulting in greater wind drift. No change in the mass of the bullet, only apparent surface area.

I think....maybe.
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  #52  
Old 05-25-2019, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobSc View Post
For those of us who don't compete the burning question really is- "how much difference does it really make?". Will it be minute of squirrel head at 100 yards, or??????

I'm quite aware of what competitors shoot, but for those of us who only compete against ourselves and the sneaky squirrels and rats, will it be better to use the SV or the harder hitting HV HP at moderate ranges... Of course, only personal testing with our own firearms will really tell the story..

Bob
Bob I was a rifle competitor most of my adult life but now only shoot prairie dogs. I have a Ruger 10/22 with a T barrel bedded in a aftermarket stock with a VQ trigger pack that puts the pull weight at about 2 lbs. This rifle with a selected lot of Lapua Midas will produce honest 3/4 inch groups at 90 yards, my limit. With the rifle sighted in at 50 yards the hold over look like this: 60 yds .5, 70 yds 1.0, 80 yds 2.00 and 90 yds 4.0. If I have a good field hold and have used the range finder, this combination is deadly on big prairie dogs. I don't mean the little ones but the big old ones as well. Now I will admit that $15.00 a box is a bit of over kill but I stopped shooting benchrest matches a few years ago and have about 3000 rounds of the good lot left. Still, if I didn't have that lot, I would be looking at a lot of Center X or SK Rifle match instead. For me it's better to spend the money for the few shots I take then risking it on any HV ammo that will not produce 3/4 inch groups at 90 yards. Don't discount what rifle competitors say. They have a lot of experience, especially with SV ammo and most likely shoot more precision shots in a year than most every day shooters will shoot in their lifetime. Happy hunting.

BTW, until a few years ago I was the manager of a free public range in a big hunting area and I have seen the results of many, many every day .22lr shooters at ranges from 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards. Seeing their groups at any range, I would not be worried about whether SV or HV ammo was more accurate. %99 do not shoot groups, they shoot patterns.
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  #53  
Old 05-25-2019, 02:28 PM
BobSc
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Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
Bob I was a rifle competitor most of my adult life but now only shoot prairie dogs. I have a Ruger 10/22 with a T barrel bedded in a aftermarket stock with a VQ trigger pack that puts the pull weight at about 2 lbs. This rifle with a selected lot of Lapua Midas will produce honest 3/4 inch groups at 90 yards, my limit. With the rifle sighted in at 50 yards the hold over look like this: 60 yds .5, 70 yds 1.0, 80 yds 2.00 and 90 yds 4.0. If I have a good field hold and have used the range finder, this combination is deadly on big prairie dogs. I don't mean the little ones but the big old ones as well. Now I will admit that $15.00 a box is a bit of over kill but I stopped shooting benchrest matches a few years ago and have about 3000 rounds of the good lot left. Still, if I didn't have that lot, I would be looking at a lot of Center X or SK Rifle match instead. For me it's better to spend the money for the few shots I take then risking it on any HV ammo that will not produce 3/4 inch groups at 90 yards. Don't discount what rifle competitors say. They have a lot of experience, especially with SV ammo and most likely shoot more precision shots in a year than most every day shooters will shoot in their lifetime. Happy hunting.

BTW, until a few years ago I was the manager of a free public range in a big hunting area and I have seen the results of many, many every day .22lr shooters at ranges from 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards. Seeing their groups at any range, I would not be worried about whether SV or HV ammo was more accurate. %99 do not shoot groups, they shoot patterns.
LOL- have to agree with you on the average shooters' prowess with a firearm. This actually does factor into this discussion since most on this site shoot more than the average shooter and are as close to rifle looneys as you can get without the patch and Tshirt to prove it.
Some of the reason for this challenge is because of the (light) pushback I've seen lately about the differences in groups between the Subsonic and HV ammo lately and thought it may be good to reinforce what is being said with some "proof in the pudding" by actually doing.
The other part of this challenge was somewhat tongue-in-cheek in order to have a good excuse to just go out and shoot more, concentrate on good groups, and try to learn something in the mean time... as if we need another excuse to go shooting...

Just as a reminder- I am in the camp believing Subsonic or Standard Velocity ammo is always going to be more accurate short or long, and is what I shoot most of the time. However, I have a pretty good stock of the HV that needs to be shot up and the ground squirrels around here- which are about a third the size of a decent Prairie dog- are the recipients. At ranges beyond about 75 yards I miss about as many as I hit, but if they make the decision to hang around for a second shot it is usually all over. At 100 yards, my holdover with most ammo is around 7" and I have to guess quite often as laser ranging something as small as a sage rat in the grass is pretty difficult most of the time. I think my longest first shot hit on a sage rat so far has been right around 150 yards...

Bob
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  #54  
Old 05-25-2019, 03:33 PM
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We have issues with Richardson Ground Squirrels coming to the bird feeder on the back porch. I live on 10 heavily wooded acres with no near neighbors and my wife has Ruger MIII competition model with a holographic sight. I shoot them off the bird feeder at about 10 feet using a good lot of Center X. Crack the side door quietly just enough to get the barrel through. It took a lot of clicks to get it sighted in at 10 feet. To me they are tougher than prairie dogs but a good solid hit and they still curl up.

BTW I just finished hand loads for my new .221 Fireball built on a Remington 700 action. with a 24" medium varmint Lilja barrel. Again custom stock pillar bedded with a Timmeny trigger set to about 2 pounds. Now I can shoot a bit further than 90 yards.
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  #55  
Old 06-05-2019, 09:37 PM
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[QUOTE=NMC_EXP;11491883]
I cannot explain the physics but the flight of 40 gr .22 LR ammo has been studied in depth by the USArmy Ballistics Research Lab at Aberdeen Proving Grounds.

The BRL concluded standard velocity .22 has less wind drift than high velocity. Quote


VERY TRUE! When explained to me I didn't really buy it. Until on a prairie dog hunt on the windy North Dakota prairie. Several of us compared some 40gr ammo , some was 1280 fps against some 1050fps rounds. At 200yds we seen a point of impact change about 25% greater with the faster ammo due to wind drift. I can't explain why but I could see it on the targets for sure. This is just the opposite of what I had learned from my centerfires. Now with the excellent hunting round that CCI makes ( subsonic segmented) none of us use HV rounds for PD hunting at anymore. I have phased HV out completely.

Last edited by Badlandsboy; 06-30-2019 at 10:01 PM.
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  #56  
Old 06-06-2019, 11:09 AM
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The short answer is wind drift is a function of the time in flight in a vacuum versus the actual time in flight.

Don't believe me. Read this
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  #57  
Old 06-28-2019, 01:40 PM
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Math nerds: if anyone is curious about wind drift and has a little time on his or her hands...try running the hornady Ballistics calculator or a similar program. I assume most programs have very similar math. Set up with one bullet definition (i.e. 40 gr .22 bullet at 0.13 BC) If you start at 400 fps and go up over 2000 fps , 100 fps at a time, you get a good look at what happens around the speed of sound. Write or plot the numbers. I don't know if the physics and math are perfect, but the results make sense. Wind drift looks to be lowest at velocities below 1200 fps and also lower as velocities get above 1900 fps if applicable. For center-fire bullets, Sierra publishes different bc numbers for their bullets at different velocities. Very interesting number for round nose bullets.

Last edited by PAndy; 06-30-2019 at 02:30 PM.
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  #58  
Old 06-28-2019, 03:05 PM
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I've been digging and reading for several months now.
Ever since I sent 50 at 200 with Eley Contact and Eley Force.
Same bullets, one subsonic, one supersonic, similar results.
Started me questioning the effects of supersonic transition on the 22lr.
The only actual study done with the 22lr is this one...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zut...ew?usp=sharing

Page 11, Conclusions: paragraph 5...




What does that last line read?

Supersonic transition and the 22lr, in the lab, results show "insignificant effect on accuracy".

So if the transition isn't the real problem with hi-v 22lr ammo, what is? Poorly made cartridges? Hmmmmm...could be.

Last edited by jaia; 06-28-2019 at 03:13 PM.
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  #59  
Old 06-30-2019, 10:51 AM
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It says in the abstract of the Army report that no significant difference in aeroballistic characteristics due to rifle or ammunition brand could be found.

I didn't read further to see what they consider significant. Competitive precision shooters seem to think it is significant otherwise why would they all use SV ammo?
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  #60  
Old 06-30-2019, 11:51 AM
jaia
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Because no one manufactures high quality hi-v 22lr.
Seriously, if all that's available is poorly made bulk hi-v
that has an ES of 100 fps per box of 50, would you use it?
The transition is a convenient excuse for poor results with hi-v 22lr.
The reality is that the actual cause of the cr*ppy trajectories is cartridge defects
due to poor quality control on the factory production line.
Make it fast, make it cheap, sell as much as possible.
Most folks will never know the difference.

Can you name any high quality hi-v 22lr?
Federal? That's just funny.
CCI? Nope, hunting and plinking ammo.
Aguila? Hah!
Armscor? Nah.
Fiocchi? Relabeled CCI.
Winchester? Bwaaaaaaa-Haaaaaaa-Haaaaaa-Haaaaaaa!
Browning? Relabeled Winchester.

When no one makes high quality hi-v 22lr, you can't use it.
The test run by McCoy used custom manufactured special ordered hi-v 22lr from Eley and RWS.
Custom runs specifically for the research lab.
Results showed high quality hi-v and SV 22lr are both accurate rounds.
SV shows slightly less wind drift.

Last edited by jaia; 06-30-2019 at 12:05 PM.
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