Model 69A-Factory Drilled and Tapped Barrel? - Page 8 - RimfireCentral.com Forums

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  #106  
Old 11-07-2010, 09:19 AM
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Here's a summation of what I believe we have on the different versions of the 69A: Once you guys have looked this over and corrected my flaws, I think I will copy and paste this post into a new stand alone thread for quick reference on the 69A.

Match:
93A blade front sight
Lyman 57E rear peep sight
Heavier stock with 1 1/4" drop at heel, with clearance cut for 57E
Two 1 1/4" sling swivels
Barrel Roll Mark: "22 L. Rifle"
Six land and groove barrel
No rear barrel sight dovetail
Barrel Proof Mark in standard location

Target:
93A blade front sight
Winchester 80A rear peep sight
Heavier stock with 1 1/4" drop at heel, with clearance cut for 80A
Two 1 1/4" sling swivels
Barrel Roll Mark: "22 L. Rifle"
Six land and groove barrel
No rear barrel sight dovetail
Barrel Proof Mark in standard location

Junior Target Shooter Special (JTSS)

93A blade front sight
Lyman 57EW rear peep sight
Standard stock with no drop at heel
One 1 1/4" front sling swivel only, no rear swivel
Barrel Roll Mark: "22 S. L. or LR"
Four land and groove barrel
Rear barrel sight dovetail cutout, plugged
Barrel Proof Mark in standard location

Standard 69A
97A front ramp sight or 75C bead front sight
Winchester 80A rear peep (with no rear barrel sight dovetail cut) in combination with 97A front sight only or ...
32 sporting rear barrel open sight with elevator in combination with 75C front bead sight only
Standard stock, no drop at heel
No sling swivels
Barrel Roll Mark: "22 SHORT LONG AND LONG RIFLE" (pre-WWII), or "22 S. L. OR L.R." (post WWII)
Four land and groove barrel
Barrel Proof Mark in standard location

Hector's, dewald's and mine, uncatalogued:
93A blade front sight
Winchester 80A rear peep
Match/Target stock with 1 1/4" drop at heel, clearance cut for 80A
Two 1 1/4" sling swivels
Barrel Roll Mark: 22 SHORT LONG AND LONG RIFLE"
Four land and groove barrel
Drilled and Tapped for scope blocks on barrel
Barrel Proof Mark moved more forward than standard location to avoid being drilled out

Perhaps the best title for our mystery gun would be the "STANDARD 69A COMPETITION RIFLE". It could be postulated that this gun was built for the serious iron sight rimfire shooter on a budget who still wanted the option of mounting a scope. This theory however would seem to have serious marketing flaws in my opinion, since the only available scopes for mounting on the barrel at that time (Lyman TargetSpot/Jr, Fecker, Unertl, etc) all cost more than the gun--in many cases twice as much! So much for being budget conscious. And also there was the 75 Target to fill the same niche. So maybe this is why we do not see more of these. The Match and Target rifles were for established NRA style matches that never allowed the use of glass, so perhaps this is why there were none of those drilled and tapped at the factory.

There are a few others we have seen or heard of--the standard rifle with the two plugged holes in the receiver (which I would say is only a cleanup gun issue), and the "Deluxe" version, checkered with fancier wood. And then there is the pre-A 69, and the factory scoped 69's and 697's......

Last edited by 22AGS; 11-08-2010 at 06:38 AM.
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  #107  
Old 11-08-2010, 07:24 PM
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JWA's Target 69A

JWA is one busy guy, and due to commitments is currently unable to spend time with us. But he managed to squeeze in a moment and give me this picture of his own 69A Target rifle Caliber marking. His feeling is that the Match rifles are far easier to come by than a Target.


Last edited by 22AGS; 11-09-2010 at 10:01 AM.
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  #108  
Old 11-09-2010, 03:55 PM
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How 'bout that?

Well, shazam! (pronounced "sha-zayum" as Goober would say it) Seems as though the Target WAS marked for long rifle only. What more could a skeptic ask? -Asa
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  #109  
Old 11-09-2010, 10:43 PM
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So what conclusions can we draw from all this?

1 - Winchester made a lot of variations of the 69A.
2 - Not all of those variations were cataloged.

We can only speculate how many rifles were made that match mine.

We can only speculate as to how they came to be. My theory is that, one night, the Kiebler Elves got drunk with a bunch of Leprechauns, busted into the New Haven plant, and just got silly with the machinery.

Hector
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  #110  
Old 11-09-2010, 10:59 PM
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I'm glad my 69 match has been helped to be verified since it has a heavier stock--hadn't noticed that before. I shall eat my crow and am very appreciative to the education learned in this thread. Please keep up the good work fellows. I hope I'm never too old to learn.
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  #111  
Old 11-10-2010, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HectorFuego View Post
So what conclusions can we draw from all this?

1 - Winchester made a lot of variations of the 69A.
2 - Not all of those variations were cataloged.

We can only speculate how many rifles were made that match OURS.

We can only speculate as to how they came to be. My theory is that, one night, the Keebler Elves got drunk with a bunch of Leprechauns, busted into the New Haven plant, and just got silly with the machinery.

Hector
Anything is possible Hector. Would that we could find that one memo from the front office: "Make up 500 regular rifles but with a Match Stock and leave open the option of mounting a Target scope by installing the mounting holes. We want to see the response from the shooting public".........
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  #112  
Old 11-10-2010, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dbl View Post
I'm glad my 69 match has been helped to be verified since it has a heavier stock--hadn't noticed that before. I shall eat my crow and am very appreciative to the education learned in this thread. Please keep up the good work fellows. I hope I'm never too old to learn.
It's nice to have everyone on the same page finally--page 8. Enjoy your lunch dbl . I think we ALL learned something here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm running out of avenues to explore on this topic. What have we gained? We have an extensive review now of most all 69A's that are known. I have a firm conviction that the subject of this thread, namely the d&t gun, IS an original. A couple of other owners have some enlightenment as well. And we can all agree that it has been something of an intellectual treat to see the evolution of conjecture on the guns. Thanks to everyone who has contributed, we're all smarter now.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last edited by 22AGS; 11-10-2010 at 01:38 PM.
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  #113  
Old 11-10-2010, 02:06 PM
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Not wanting to stir the pot too much more, but does this look like a target stock to anyone?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=197677528

It looks to me as though the top of the buttstock is not quite straight, and the forend is squared off. Could be just the angle of the photo though.

Hector
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  #114  
Old 11-10-2010, 02:50 PM
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Looks like a totally standard open sight 69A to me, made somewhere between 1954 and approximately 1957. Bent Bolt, serrated trigger, all blue hardware.
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  #115  
Old 11-10-2010, 03:18 PM
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Yeah, that's kinda what I expected after looking at some others. May be my extra wide monitor causing an optical illusion.

Howard
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  #116  
Old 11-19-2010, 05:10 PM
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Jtss

I found this today in a 1960 catalog copy that Kevin in NH sent me last year. Good info on the Junior Target Shooters Special!
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  #117  
Old 11-21-2010, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by leveraction94 View Post
JWA How come the wood for the Match rifles is cut further forward of the mounting tang on the lyman sights But on the JTSS the wood cutout is very close to the front edge of the mounting tang? Just curious.........Tim

Hi Tim,

Sorry for the delay in responding, I have been out of town.

Excellent question and one to which I wish I knew the answer. You have keen powers of observation and are correct, every true Match rifle I have seen has had a larger than normal gap in front of the 57EW sight. I have disassembled many Match rifles for inspection/evaluation and all of the inletting appears to be consistent. The bottom of the sight cut appears to have been done by machine but the front 1/4" of the sight cut appears to be hand inletted with a small radius in the bottom corner. As you have astutely pointed out, this is different than later inletting for the 57EW which is shorter in length, fits the sight and has a 90 degree corner at the front.

I don't know the answer to your question but I can offer several plausible scenarios which fit the evidence.

Since the Winchester wood shop ran stocks in batches and the Match stocks were limited in number it is reasonable to assume that only a few "batches" or even only one batch of Match stocks was run on the equipment.

If the jig/pattern was slightly off for the sight inletting and wasn't discovered until final assembly it would be cheaper/easer/quicker to simply hand inlet the front of the notch. If this was not done on an individual basis at the time of each rifle assembly but done in a separate area in a group lot, a "tolerance" would have to be included for the hand inletting to insure the sight would fit.

Again, this is just a plausible scenario and not the answer to your question. It is one of the Match details I have wondered about myself.

Best Regards,

PS, Thanks for the great pictures you supplied, they really make this thread interesting.
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  #118  
Old 11-21-2010, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by JWA View Post
PS, (Tim) Thanks for the great pictures you supplied, they really make this thread interesting.
Well I like THAT! I'll try harder next time.

Seriously, Tim and all you guys, you have indeed made this topic a winner with all your feedback and pictures.
Glad you're back JWA, as usual your feedback enlightens and enlivens the discussion.

Last edited by 22AGS; 11-21-2010 at 07:33 AM.
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  #119  
Old 11-21-2010, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by 22AGS View Post
Well I like THAT! I'll try harder next time.

Seriously, Tim and all you guys, you have indeed made this topic a winner with all your feedback and pictures.
Glad you're back JWA, as usual your feedback enlightens and enlivens the discussion.

I believe I used the correct word "supplied" whereas you simply "posted" them but nevertheless, additional thanks are in order. Here is the official version for your records; Thank you 22APP (.22 Amateur Picture Poster) for your diligent hard work in posting our pictures. We truly appreciate all your efforts.

I am very glad to be back home and happy the RFC forum is mostly functional again.
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  #120  
Old 11-21-2010, 11:15 AM
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Ahhhh, I needed a good laugh. Now if we can just get more of these guys involved in the discussions.
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