Model 69A-Factory Drilled and Tapped Barrel? - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-29-2010, 08:52 AM
22AGS's Avatar
22AGS
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Location: 
south Florida
Posts: 
9,160
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Model 69A-Factory Drilled and Tapped Barrel?



Log in to see fewer ads
Edit Note: November 6, 2010. Herewith is another one of those cases in which I ask an innocent question and it kinda snowballs into something else. This thread, particularly later in the pages, contains a wealth of information on the differences between the 69A Match, the true Target vs the regular or "standard" peep sight gun, and the Junior Target Shooter Special aka JTSS. I hope it serves as a reference work for you collectors, and for me I just want my gun certified factory. As of today, I am 100% certain it is, we have documentation on another two identical examples from other parts of the country and hear tell of a fourth that was sold off. But it would be nice if someone would come forward with a catalog listing for the gun.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edit Note: February 1, 2014 This thread now has an almost nostalgic delight, at least for me. I remember being alone in the wilderness, so to speak , when I first put this out there. With the help of so many of you guys, particularly JWA, Flysalot, HectorFuego, Dewald, and OldMan58, my original question has now been thoroughly answered to my satisfaction. Thanks guys!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edit Note: September 28, 2014. As of now, we have all the documentation needed to state with certainty and proofs that this rifle is indeed a factory issue, made for less than one year (and possibly only 6 months), just prior to the United States' entry into WWII. The number we have located approaches twenty, and JWA also discovered an even rarer upgrade in the form of a Match version, one of which, a minty example, he has procured. YEE HA.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Guys,
Over the past few years I have had several of you mention or show pictures of a rifle similar to one I own that has always been something of a mystery. The gun is an early 69A with four holes drilled and tapped into the barrel. The proof mark is moved further forward on the rear of the barrel, which leads me to believe it's factory, as the regular proof mark location would have seen the mark destroyed by this last hole. Sling swivels are installed, the front sight is a 93A 'shark fin' style, and there is a straight bolt and smooth trigger. The stock is a beefy target style, larger than would be normal for a 'sporter' or field gun. Not shown is the original 80A rear peep sight, which I removed during scope installation. The rifle did come with a single shot adaptor clip, but this isn't necessarily proof the clip came with the gun originally.
If you do have such a rifle, I would appreciate an update with pictures if possible. There is an important reason I am doing this now. I want to see what we have, and again make a stab at certifying the type as an original factory issue. Thanks!
Here are the pictures of mine. The scope and blocks were added by me at a later date.






Note the spelled out caliber designation, a pre-WWII feature. After the war it became "S. L. or L.R."





Last edited by 22AGS; 12-30-2014 at 07:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-29-2010, 09:18 AM
JWA's Avatar
JWA

Join Date: 
Jan 2010
Location: 
32,000 ft+
Posts: 
5,239
TPC Rating: 
100% (4)
Great looking rifle AGS! I think you have a real treasure there

While we are on the subject, I would like to ask anyone with a 69 dual sight or 697 to measure the distance of their factory scope mounting block screws (all 4) from the front face of the receiver. I would like to find out if there was a difference in the mounting block positions for the 5 power and 2 3/4 power scopes and/or a variation of location throughout production.

Thanks in advance for the time and effort!

Regards,

Last edited by JWA; 10-29-2010 at 09:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-29-2010, 09:24 AM
Bobin Maine
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
May 2005
Posts: 
661
TPC Rating: 
100% (3)
Is the barrel free floating ? What I ran into, at a local shop, was a 69A in a 75 stock. The 75 has a thicker barrel which left the barrel free to float. The shop owner was selling it as a match model Winchester 69A. It is still there.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 10-29-2010, 10:04 AM
22AGS's Avatar
22AGS
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Location: 
south Florida
Posts: 
9,160
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobin Maine View Post
Is the barrel free floating ? What I ran into, at a local shop, was a 69A in a 75 stock. The 75 has a thicker barrel which left the barrel free to float. The shop owner was selling it as a match model Winchester 69A. It is still there.
No, this is a true 69A stock, no front barrel band hole or evidence of one. I also do not believe the barrel is free-floated though I haven't checked, but will this weekend when I also measure those hole spacings. The 75 Target stock, at least the early ones, has a checkered metal buttplate btw, this one has the standard "72" stamped composite one.

Appreciate the compliments and whatever you can do to help in this task JW!

Last edited by 22AGS; 10-29-2010 at 10:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-29-2010, 10:23 AM
22AGS's Avatar
22AGS
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Location: 
south Florida
Posts: 
9,160
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
I dug this up in the archives.
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=283582
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-29-2010, 11:46 AM
JWA's Avatar
JWA

Join Date: 
Jan 2010
Location: 
32,000 ft+
Posts: 
5,239
TPC Rating: 
100% (4)
AGS, Thanks for re-posting the info, I missed that thread the first time around.

FWIW, The Winchester catalogs between 1937 and 1941 list the Model 69 with standard sights available from Winchester already drilled and tapped but with no scope included. Winchester lists 3 different model #'s depending upon the sights and scope power. The Winchester #'s assigned to those factory D&T'd rifles with standard sights were:

G6952R
G6955R
G6956R

So, they in fact do exist and were listed as a separate option in the period Winchester catalogs and internal sales documentation. The initial factors in identifying one of the three models listed above are the location of proof marks (Winchester NEVER drilled through a proof on an initial factory installation) and the hole spacing/location.

22AGS, your rifle seems to be even more special as it has what appear to be factory sling swivels and upgraded/optional sights. Your stock could even possibly be a Target/Match stock which has a different drop at the comb than the normal 69 stock. You can easily measure the drop by removing the action and placing the stock upside down on a flat surface and measuring the distance from the surface to the heel.

Thanks for stirring the pot on these fine rifles.

Regards,

Last edited by JWA; 10-30-2010 at 12:27 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-29-2010, 12:08 PM
22AGS's Avatar
22AGS
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Location: 
south Florida
Posts: 
9,160
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWA View Post
AGS, Thanks for re-posting the info, I missed that thread the first time around.

FWIW, The Winchester catalogs between 1937 and 1941 list the Model 69 with standard sights available from Winchester already drilled and tapped but with no scope included. Winchester lists 3 different model #'s depending upon the sights and scope power. The Winchester #'s assigned to those factory D&T'd rifles with standard sights were:

G6952R
G6955R
G6956R

So, they in fact do exist and were listed as a separate option in the period Winchester catalogs and internal sales documentation. The initial factors in identifying one of the three models listed above are the location of proof marks (Winchester NEVER drilled through a proof) and the hole spacing/location.

22AGS, your rifle seems to be even more special as it has what appear to be factory sling swivels and upgraded/optional sights. Your stock could even possibly be a Target/Match stock which has a different drop at the comb than the normal 69 stock. You can easily measure the drop by removing the action and placing the stock upside down on a flat surface and measuring the distance from the surface to the heel.

Thanks for stirring the pot on these fine rifles.

Regards,
I will make that measurement as well this weekend to determine the drop. Thanks for doing the research!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-03-2010, 10:32 AM
22AGS's Avatar
22AGS
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Location: 
south Florida
Posts: 
9,160
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
More info from Hector on an earlier thread

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=173445

Also learn that tobyfloyd61 had one of these as well as a similarly drilled & tapped 72, but alas, they've been traded.

Last edited by 22AGS; 11-03-2010 at 10:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-03-2010, 07:44 PM
22AGS's Avatar
22AGS
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Location: 
south Florida
Posts: 
9,160
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
I want to thank dewald for coming through in a BIG way, he has one of these guns and no time to play with it lately, but found the time to send me these excellent quality photographs of his rifle. In almost all ways I can see it's identical to mine and Hector's. Compare and contrast:










Comparing proof marks, they are not in the same location. Hector's is identical to mine however.




Last edited by 22AGS; 11-21-2010 at 02:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-03-2010, 08:23 PM
dewald
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
May 2009
Location: 
northeast ohio
Posts: 
63
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Thanks again 22AGS for helping me out with this.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-03-2010, 08:36 PM
22AGS's Avatar
22AGS
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Location: 
south Florida
Posts: 
9,160
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewald View Post
Thanks again 22AGS for helping me out with this.
Your photos contribute greatly to my quest to verify this gun as an original, so the feeling's mutual. Our scorecard is up to three on film, with tobyfloyd's information making four so far. As I wondered earlier, I wonder how many were actually made? We'll probably never know. But I think we have established that these guns need to be cared for, not altered in any way, and saved for the next wave of Winchester 69 collector someday.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:18 PM
JWA's Avatar
JWA

Join Date: 
Jan 2010
Location: 
32,000 ft+
Posts: 
5,239
TPC Rating: 
100% (4)
Awesome, thanks dewald for the photos! We can probably now classify this as an unofficial sub-species of the 69. The search will continue for some type of supporting documentation.

Regards,
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-06-2011, 09:12 PM
22AGS's Avatar
22AGS
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Location: 
south Florida
Posts: 
9,160
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Here is another one of these rifles. The 80A rear peep has been swapped out for a Lyman, but the gun is drilled and tapped, and the proofmark on the barrel is moved forward.
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...=1#post3255984
__________________
22 A.G.S. (Amateur Gun Smith)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-27-2012, 06:55 AM
22AGS's Avatar
22AGS
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Location: 
south Florida
Posts: 
9,160
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Bump.
__________________
22 A.G.S. (Amateur Gun Smith)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-27-2012, 08:46 AM
HectorFuego's Avatar
HectorFuego
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2007
Location: 
Lee's Summit, MO
Posts: 
1,984
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I believe there may be another one in play within our demented community. Come on. Speak up. We know who you are. Just want to hear you gloat.

This one was listed on gunbroker over a week ago with an unknown reserve. I think I was the first to notice it, but lack of funds inhibited me from bidding on it. Wanting it to go to a home where it would be appreciated vs Dubba-ed up, and ruined, I notified another member. That individual was unable to bid on it too, but notified a 3rd member. In the mean time, it broke the reserve at a fairly low limit. I PMed member 2, that, with the low limit, I might be able to take a run at it. He advised me that he thought member 3 would be bidding on it. To make a long story short there were several e-mails and PMs between the 3 of us that went something like, "If you really want it I'll back off. No! If you really want it I'll back off, etc." Again the main goal was to make sure it went to someone who would appreciate its uniqueness.

Member number 3 won the auction, if I read it right, and got it for a reasonable price. The point is, nowadays, it's pretty rare to see that kind of communication and generousity between 3 relative strangers. What a great group of people.

Hector
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 PM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x