Bought an unusual scoped silhouette Anschutz 64 on GB. That "arrived" today by UPS. Tracking showed it was delivered. My usual FFL contacted me and said the package was an empty gun case.
SN 1277624 in case someone finds it in a dumpster.
How do you handle this crap with a Gun Broker seller???
As an occasional seller of my own stuff, mostly archery equipment, I can attest I've often had to open a perfectly sealed and well-packed box (before I go to mail) to put something in that I had forgotten. At least once I think I had to follow a package with another because I forgot some accessory or something.
Earlier this year I shipped a scope and a bow to two different fellows who paid by PayPal. In both cases I received the shipping address through the PayPal receipt and shipped. In one case the bow was sent to the address, about 45 minutes from the buyer's home, that he used to own. He was on his way home from the airport and went by that house and the bow was there!
In another case I sold an air rifle scope to a fellow in Miami, FL. Again, I used an address from PayPal. That scope was sent to an address in Miami Beach, again the wrong address, but a friend of the buyer.
Turns out when PayPal-using folks have sent or received items from "Friends and Family" the addresses can be confused. Doesn't make a bit of sense to me, but both of these situations worked out, but I have to say a few hours (the bow) and about a week (the scope) of fret and concern!
In the case of the $1,400 bow I had insurance, but I sure didn't want to go through the hassle of using it. In the case of the scope ($290), I didn't have insurance (unusual for me), but I did have an identical scope that I intended to keep. If that scope hadn't showed up, I would have sent him my "spare" for free.
Now I double check the address. I send the buyer the address I'm planning to ship too. The buyer has to confirm before I ship.
I don't use the F&F paypal option. It's just not worth it. If somebody is worried about the extra cost of the paypal commission, just plus up the price to account for it. 3% fee can add up but it's worth it, IMO.
I only use F&F if I really consider the person a friend....or family. I think not shipppng a firearm or losing a firearm somewhere going over State lines would interest the ATF had this not been an accident. Some people are just crazy though & would do it anyway.
35 years ago, the morning of my wedding,Iget a call from the band leader, who says icant make it to the wedding. Turns out he had been thrown out of the house, i had to go over and pay his wife to get back his clarinet. I kept it in my possession until the band showed up at the wedding.
Your money / gun are gone. And there is only one way to get either back. Road Trip And for thetrouble that could cause ya gotta ask yourself , is it worth it?
At 26 years old , I already would have tracked this dude down. At 66, Id pursue the GB refund and report the theft to the authorities.
35 years ago, the morning of my wedding,Iget a call from the band leader, who says icant make it to the wedding. Turns out he had been thrown out of the house, i had to go over and pay his wife to get back his clarinet. I kept it in my possession until the band showed up at the wedding.
Your money / gun are gone. And there is only one way to get either back. Road Trip And for thetrouble that could cause ya gotta ask yourself , is it worth it?
At 26 years old , I already would have tracked this dude down. At 66, Id pursue the GB refund and report the theft to the authorities.
I know a guy that felt cheated on an ebay purchase, and hearing his side of the story, I was inclined to agree with him. The seller had no problem with blowing him off, no doubt thinking that he was safe being on the other side of the country. Though well into his sixties, my acquaintance, who I suspect had committed some atrocities in Nam, was not someone to blow off. One of two guys that I've known in my life that I would consider highly dangerous.
He made the flight, showed up on the guy's doorstep, and with a bit of manual convincing, got his money back. His expenses for the trip had to be close to what he collected, but it was about the principle to him.
I was promised a new shipment and a new tracking number on Apri 1st (April Fools Day) and have not received either as yet.
Methinks the man is a malefactor with some honesty issues, ya think ?
His name is in the text:
"Bruce, THis time the gun IS packaged and will go out on today's shipment so I do not have a tracking number yet. As soon as it is picked up, I will receive the tracking number and forward it to you.
I am so sorry for the confusion.
Jeffrey Butler
On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 11:38 AM Jeffrey Butler <jebutler9999@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce,
My deepest apologies. I still have the gun. I will wrap it, pay for the UPS label and package it today. It will go out tomorrow.
Going through a divorce and changing homes cause the oversight. That is no excuse, just wanted you to know the reasoning.
Again I am deeply sorry for the inconvenience.
Jeffrey Butler"
I would suppose you all would NOT like this to happen to you.....it should not happen to anyone and as long as we put constant pressure on those that stray from the path, we reduce the pain and loss to others:bthumb::bthumb:
You have his name (assuming it IS his name) and his Email address. Do you have his home address? If he shipped that empty case via UPS he would have had to give them his home address. If you have or can get all that, and this sham continues, you should have recourse through local authorities. What is the threshold for grand larceny?
Yes, I have his physical address and it was sent UPS. PA just uses the term "theft" instead of larceny. But they have a butt-kicker if its a firearm.
"
Merchandise theft: Based on the amount of the items in question, you may face charges for a summary offense, a misdemeanor or a felony. Maximum jail sentences range from 90 days to seven years. Maximum fines range from $300 to $15,000.
Auto theft: In Pennsylvania, any theft involving an automobile falls under the felony category. As with felonies merchandise theft, the maximum prison sentence you face here is up to seven years and the maximum fine is up to $15,000.
Firearm theft: Stealing a gun or other firearm is also a felony under state law. The same maximum sentence and fine that apply to car theft also apply here."
I don't think it can be said that he stole a firearm, as its his own gun or represented as being his own gun.. At this point, he's guilty of fraud/stealing money.
Sorry for your troubles Rapidfire10ring. Whitepages Premium shows the gentleman is 46 and has no arrests or even traffic violations. I suspect there's no criminal intent here, the guy is just scatter brained.
Give it him a little time and keep up the communication until this is resolved.
Regards,
Frank
P.S. Toomany22s, from the GB ad it's a Tasco 24x44 Fine Crosshair/Dot.
I was going to suggest the same thing. He has had positive feedback on 8 transactions, 2 in the past 12 months. I would just keep up the gentle pressure.
His record is positive; his latest actions, not so much. If he had, in fact, promptly "re-sent" the rifle with tracking number provided as promised, it would be more in keeping with that record. But that hasn't happened. So, is his life in such shambles with divorce, moving -- both of which can be rather traumatic -- that he's unable to do something as straightforward as sending a package? I hope gentle pressure is enough, but... Sure hope it works out.
I just communicate with him today, stating he had not RE-SENT the rifle, and he sent an image of the tracking.....but it was the ORIGINAL received as an EMPTY rifle case. Either he is on drugs, or he has no intention of shipping. BT
The light at the end of the tunnel is getting dimmer. A friend looked him up and confirms his identity with a photo and some other information: Apparently he is a retired Liquor Control Officer from PA, probably has a retirement check each month too. A felony conviction could end that. Today he went back to his old claim and said he shipped. I filed the GB claim before the clock ran out. I will call ATF tomorrow.
"Mail Fraud A crime in which the perpetrator develops a scheme using the mails to defraud another of money or property. This crime specifically requires the intent to defraud, and is a federal offense governed by section 1341 of title 18 of the U.S. Code."
Google has a reverse image search function. Take the pictures from the GB ad, upload them and Google will check to see if those images are elsewhere on the web. We used this when my wife's friend met the man of her dreams online. Turns out he was the man of many other women's dreams too.
I believe PA also has restitution laws for crime victims. If he were to be convicted of a crime related to your transaction, you might be able to recoup your loss via a lien on his property or future earnings. Of course, nothing is easy or timely.
Doug: Basically he just gave me the middle finger today and implied that it was my long-time FFL dealer that stole the rifle.
And just a couple of days earlier, he profusely apologize for NOT SENDING the rifle and promised he would ship that day.
He just gave you a gift. He opened the door wide open to bring in the ATF. Your FFL will easily be able to refute his claim by showing them the shipping weight on the label. He just indirectly admitted to the crime.
Perp looks a lot like the shmuck that kept my Mac he was supposed to repair. Long n short they found him in WI and extradited him back to MI. I so did enjoy seeing him in court, in handcuffs, and get 6mo. in jail. He was also ordered to pay restitution for a new puter which he did in payments after getting out.
Quote:
And if you are ready to go nuclear, the USPS Postal Inspector and his local town police would be the logical next steps. You can cause him significant troubles. The ATF wouldn't have jurisdiction from what you've described so far as no federal firearm laws have been broken.
Good luck!
Frank
A postal inspector would be more likely to get involved if the buyer used a USPS money order and not some other type. How long for them to look into it, is another matter.
In any case, the seller has established quite enough documentation to put himself in a fix.
Good morning Camster. Kind of hard to keep track of all the particulars in 93 posts but a bit ago the OP wrote, "I did file the Buyer protection claim, I just have to get a copy of the signed Money Order that I sent to him (via Federal mail) and fax a copy to GB claims. Also I left a blistering negative feedback."
I'm assuming postal money order although that may not be correct. In any event as Mr. Buffington said, contacting the fraud squad/computer crimes department of the seller's local constabulary is a logical next step _if_ communication has stopped.
We've all taken haircuts before, personal and business. It's no fun and can be quite painful psychologically and financially. What has helped me in such events is recognizing that it's not personal and that logic and reason are much more likely to sort it out than anger.
I've also found that the longer I can keep the other party talking, the better the chances of a mutually satisfactory resolution.
...just random thoughts...
Frank
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