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Real world .22 self defense.

43K views 201 replies 83 participants last post by  gmd1950 
#1 · (Edited)
I love guns, and have been a shooter since my early days. But I am somewhat distressed at what have seen in the changes in the gun community driven by corporate greed in the past 20 years or so.

I’ll start by being very brutally honest; I’m a mixed race, former gang member from a very bad part of Washington D.C.. I have taken part in criminal activities in my teenage years, and most the guys I grew up with ended up in either prison, or the cemetery. The leading cause of death of young men in D.C., is gunfire. By the time I was 18 I had lost three friends to gunshots. Two were killed in gang vs gang activities, one was killed ironically being mugged when he got a job in the government and moved out to the Maryland suburbs and was shot in a metro parking garage in Silver Spring, Maryland. The only way I avoided that fate was I had an uncle that ‘convinced’ me to enlist in the service and get out of town. I owe him my life, as well as Sgt. First Class Mouton, a mentor who for some reason who saw something in me worth saving. I went strait and went on to live a pretty normal life.

But I see the gun shop guru’s brainlessly parroting the gun magazine guru’s, many of who have never had to use a gun in real world self defense. They are selling guns that the new naive buyers don’t really need, and will rarely if ever carry. Too big, too heavy, too much recoil to shoot fast and acurrite for the little amount of practice they will do once the new enthusiasm wears off. Yeah, I know, a gun is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable. But…why not both?

Growing up in what most people would call a bad part of town, what looking back I’d call a ghetto, there was lots of guns around. No matter that D.C. was as much an anti gun place as NYC, or anywhere in New Jersey, people were people, and they wanted to protect themselves. Small guns that didn’t cost much were the rule. Since these were not guns from a real gun shop, they came from the ‘gun guy.’ The guy you met by the trash dumpsters out back of the bowling ally or bar you frequented. You didn’t know the gun guy, and he didn’t want to know you. No names. But it was agreed on, if you got caught with the gun, you said you bought it from a guy at a bar that was hard up for money. If you had to use it, you tossed it in the river after and said nothing. Not like that idiot in the NYC subway shooting that actually turned himself in.

The most popular guns were the little German made RG .22 revolvers. They went bang everytinme, and at the close range most shootings took place, accuracy didn’t matter. Shooting at little more than arms length, minute of angle don’t matter. Another popular gun was the little Italian made .25acp’s. Galesi and the FIE Titan were around. Pocket size and effective. Which brings me to the point.

I was involved in one shooting with a little palm size .22 derringer. My friend Eli was shot in the stomach with a .22 RG. Our friend Al was killed by a little teenage crack head with a Raven .25. I first hand witnessed a shooting outside a bar where the deceased tried to use a strait razor on someone, and got shot three times with a RG.22. All in all, I never saw, or heard of, anyone who got shot with a .22 or .25 center of mass, dancing around afterward. In fact, I never heard of anyone not going down for the count, regardless of what some self inflated magazine guru said. Shootings were about 5 to 8 feet in range, and it was all over in a few seconds and a few shots, one way or the other. And it didn’t seem to matter what kind of gun you used, if you shot first and hit, then you got to live. When my friend Eli was gut shot one time, he crumbled and was out fit. He survived, but later in the hospital I asked him if he could have run or done anything. He said; “No man, it was like a white hot soldering iron twisting around in my guts.” Eli was a good 6 foot and 200 pound guy. He was taken right down the itty bitty .22.

I like to practice once a week. I go to local shooting ranges and I see a lot of atrocious shooting. Mostly by people shooting one of the “in” guns from Sig, Glock, or whatever, and its all they can do to keep most of their rounds inside the black on a full size silhouette at 10 yards, slowly aiming and taking their time. And they still manage to get rounds off in the white. There seems to be a direct correlation to how bad they shoot as to caliber. The 9mm people are barely passable. The .40 crowd is outright bad, while the more compact .380 shooters like Ruger LCP, Glock 42, the little Sig number whatever, are terrible. The little .380 crowd is a lot of women who can’t deal with the snappy .380’s. On multiple occasions now, I’ve been approached by a female shooter wanting to know what kind of gun I’m shooing that all the holes are in the middle. When I show them a .22, I’ve let them try it, and almost immediately they want one. After just a few cylinders of ammo, their shooting improves noticeably. Even a few men shooters did way way better with a .22. They then went to gun counter of the ranges gun shop and tried to trade in their gun for one like my .22. They of course got the speech of how a .22 will just make someone mad and it has zero stopping power. This from a gun guru that has never shot anyone in their sheltered little world.

Over the past few years, I and my wife have taught/retrained/influenced 11 women we met on shooting ranges to trade in their guns on a good quality .22 that they actually enjoy shooting. Ruger LCR’s, Smith and Wesson 317’s, NAA Black Widow’s, seem to be popular with them. A few even sprang for a Combo of a Ruger LCR .22 and a smaller NAA .22 for pocket carry when the Ruger may be a bit big for a date or business carry.

Unless you’re the Lone Ranger bringing justice to the frontier, or some other Hollywood action hero, it seems like most people going about their life going to the office, stopping on the way home to pick a pizza for the kids, picking up the dry cleaning, or taking the wife and kids for a walk in the park, would be better served by a small pocket size .22 that they can actually shoot well and enjoy practicing. Not to mention can just be dropped in a pocket holster in the pants with no trouble, so it will actually be there in case of a problem. Leave the bigger guns to the tactical Tommy’s that think they are Steven Sagal taking on a trainload of terrorists . I know that in the past 30 plus years of carrying one or two NAA mini .22’s, they have worked on two occasions of stopping a crime. My wife stopped a car jacking at a gas station with her little S&W 317.

This is just my own opinion from a earlier life in a crappy ghetto and first hand at real violence. I was a criminal and teenage gang member and street thug. I've seen people shot, and I've shot someone once. All I can go on is what I've actually experienced and seen first hand.
 
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#141 ·
One thing that I believe heavily skews your stats is the fact that a lot of the gang bangers out there shoot centerfire handguns but typically load them with FMJ and not HP. I'm guessing that they account for many of the shootings with centerfire cartridges.

I don't see any other way that most of the centerfire rounds in your study have a higher or equal accuracy % (head or torso) but a lower stopping %.
 
#142 ·
One thing that I believe heavily skews your stats is the fact that a lot of the gang bangers out there shoot centerfire handguns but typically load them with FMJ and not HP. I'm guessing that they account for many of the shootings with centerfire cartridges.

I don't see any other way that most of the centerfire rounds in your study have a higher or equal accuracy % (head or torso) but a lower stopping %.
They're not my stats and he explains how he gathered them.

From what I've heard/read a 22 bullet that deflects around inside the body rather than existing causes more damage than one might think. Which is another reason I would prefer a 22 - so it doesn't pass through and hit something/someone else.
 
#147 ·
I've carried .22s, 38/357s 9 mm and .45s throughout the years. I felt safest with the .45 and had to pull it out more than once when I was in a bad neighborhood. Fortunately when the approaching perpetrators saw that I had a gun they turned around and quickly left.

I now carry an EZ-9 with 2 extra magazines. I have a difficult time racking the slide on most of my old autos but the EZ is as advertised, a great gun.

I'm looking for another pocket pistol, the EZ is a little too big to fit in my pocket. I'm a pretty good shot so I'm going to get a .22 and use either Federal Punch ammo or Stingers in it. I have plenty of them so I can practice and make sure I can hit my target.

In Arizona you don't need a CCW to carry concealed or open carry. I like having a gun that no one knows I have. From everything I've read the 22 will do it's job.
 
#148 ·
Another one off the edge:D

The problem with statistics is that if the population that they are drawn from is not complete, the results are very often skewed and incorrect.


If 22lr was as lethal as posited here, the military would utilize them as standard issue ammo. Its cheap and light.


Bigger bullets moving faster are obviously better at killing than little bullets moving slower..

Bullets that expand or tumble when they impact are better at killing than bullets that zip thru flesh.


Gang bangers typically use fmj range ammo, basically 1/2 loads, not Nato fmj, or +P+.,the only thing less effective at killing is 22lr.. Even if it is Called “ Punch”
 
#154 ·
If 22lr was as lethal as posited here, the military would utilize them as standard issue ammo. Its cheap and light.

Bullets that expand or tumble when they impact are better at killing than bullets that zip thru flesh.
Israel's military is a pretty good one. No?

https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/10/21/israel-adopts-ruger-sr-22-in-less-lethal-sniper-role/

Heard the reason that they wanted a less lethal rifle was so for a leg shot so the suspect could limp back to the hideout.

22s are pretty good at tumbling

Just thinking the military industrial defense complex usually thinks bigger and more expensive is the way to go.
 
#150 · (Edited)
The "two-two" is used by the IDF; suppressed Ruger 10/22:

...and the Massad has been quite successful with the very reliable Beretta model 71:
Probably ought to qualify why the 10/22 was used by the IDF. Not to mention concealed carry with a scoped and suppressed rifle is a bit cumbersome. Also hard not to notice the other carbine in that same photo.

http://www.warriortalk.com/

https://rimfireblog.blogspot.com

Then there is this photo. Seems like the 10/22 sniper is carrying some options on him with a handgun and another carbine.
 

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#157 ·
The idf uses 22 s to kill troublesome dogs, and execute/ assassinate terrorists where they cant drop a bomb.

And David Killed Goliath with a stone and a sling.

Argue all you want, the earth is round, and 22 lr is Not good for SD!
To be precise, David killed Goliath with Goliath's own sword after knocking him unconscious with a stone to the forehead. Then David cut off Goliath's head with the same sword.

You could compare this to what some defense experts say about using a handgun to fight your way to a rifle.
 
#160 ·
http://americanshootingjournal.com/22-wmr-ammo/

This article pertains to the question but I can't vouch for its validity.

Video:

Some members are offering "popcorn" opinions or anecdotes while I'm bringing the data. Show me your your data rather than your popcorn.

Some numbers from that article might have come from the link I had inserted.

I think we can agree that a shotgun works well.

The 22 lr does very well for shot placement which seems to relate to the low number of rounds needed 1.38. Many people carrying, if they "dropped" down to a 22lr might be mildly surprised but there are a lot of testosterone filled women who like a 38 special and some testy men who like a 45 which takes 2.08 shots. :D

25ACP
# of people shot - 68
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 25%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.2
% of people who were not incapacitated - 35%
One-shot-stop % - 30%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 62%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 49%

.22 (short, long and long rifle)
# of people shot - 154
# of hits - 213
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
One-shot-stop % - 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%

.32 (both .32 Long and .32 ACP)
# of people shot - 25
# of hits - 38
% of hits that were fatal - 21%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.52
% of people who were not incapacitated - 40%
One-shot-stop % - 40%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 78%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 72%

.380 ACP
# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

.38 Special
# of people shot - 199
# of hits - 373
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.87
% of people who were not incapacitated - 17%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 55%

9mm Luger
# of people shot - 456
# of hits - 1121
% of hits that were fatal - 24%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 34%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47%

.357 (both magnum and Sig)
# of people shot - 105
# of hits - 179
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7
% of people who were not incapacitated - 9%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61%

.40 S&W
# of people shot - 188
# of hits - 443
% of hits that were fatal - 25%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.36
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 45%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 52%

.45 ACP
# of people shot - 209
# of hits - 436
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%

.44 Magnum
# of people shot - 24
# of hits - 41
% of hits that were fatal - 26%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.71
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 59%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 88%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 53%

Rifle (all Centerfire)
# of people shot - 126
# of hits - 176
% of hits that were fatal - 68%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.4
% of people who were not incapacitated - 9%
One-shot-stop % - 58%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 80%

Shotgun (All, but 90% of results were 12 gauge)
# of people shot - 146
# of hits - 178
% of hits that were fatal - 65%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.22
% of people who were not incapacitated - 12%
One-shot-stop % - 58%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 84%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 86%
 
#159 ·
I just threw the IDF info out there to show that although the .22LR cartridge may not be accepted as a self defense cartridge, it's successfully used in current times to wound, disable, or exterminate life when required.

It's my understanding that the IDF Border Patrol uses their suppressed Ruger 10/22 rifles with live ammo in lieu of centerfire cartridge rubber bullet/munitions to wound their targets, but are fully capable to taking out an individual/ending a threat with these rimfire weapons if deemed necessary.

The Massad has successfully used the diminutive .22LR Beretta 71 for close up and personal work during hostage crisis' and as Air Marshalls. Whether they still use this pistol I don't know, but I don't see why not as nothing has appeared to replace it.

Jailed mob hitmen have boasted in interviews for decades how useful the .22LR cartridge is for offing people, commenting on how the firearms chambered in .22LR are small and easily concealed, with one shot to the head at close range usually being all that's required to kill their target.

This topic reminds me of the 9 vs 45 argument...all the xspurts come out of the woodwork and it goes 'round and 'round and 'round. I say just carry what you want, it's your arse, and anybody who doesn't like your choice simply isn't worth arguing with!
 
#161 ·
But your data is from a single source. There's plenty of other data available from other gun writers that show that centerfire handguns are better for SD. I'd post one here but I'm sure everyone has seen one at one time.

In the article the author says he got info from attending autopsies and newspapers among other things. How many autopsies could he have possibly attended? And what newspapers? He certainly didn't read every newspaper in the country. And even if he did since when is the news right.

I'm not saying there's a better way to gather the information than what he did. I'm also not saying there's not. IMO his statistics are inconclusive and in no way prove that the .22 is a better or equal round for SD as a centerfire.

I noticed there was no column for FTF's in his charts also......
 
#166 ·
But your data is from a single source. There's plenty of other data available from other gun writers that show that centerfire handguns are better for SD. I'd post one here but I'm sure everyone has seen one at one time.

In the article the author says he got info from attending autopsies and newspapers among other things. How many autopsies could he have possibly attended? And what newspapers? He certainly didn't read every newspaper in the country. And even if he did since when is the news right.

I'm not saying there's a better way to gather the information than what he did. I'm also not saying there's not. IMO his statistics are inconclusive and in no way prove that the .22 is a better or equal round for SD as a centerfire.

I noticed there was no column for FTF's in his charts also......
Provide data from another source then...

Maybe FTF is an over blown myth or it shows up in the "superiority" of the centerfire numbers. If there was an FTF with rimfire vs a centerfire then we would see that benefit there. Do you have real life FTF data or more popcorn.
 
#164 ·
My popcorn opinion Mr. Whiplash sir, is that everyone's mind is already made up and no amount of data is going to change that. I carry what I want, you carry what you want, que sera sera.

But please continue while I await Staff Sgt Infidel and another delicious batch of his jalapeno cheddar kettle corn :bthumb:

Frank
 

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#168 ·
My popcorn opinion Mr. Whiplash sir, is that everyone's mind is already made up and no amount of data is going to change that. I carry what I want, you carry what you want, que sera sera.

Frank
Correct as usual LtCrunch. I'm not going to stay up tonight because someone on the internet is "wrong". I'm about out of here for a while unless some data from another source comes in.

Paul Harrell's recommendation and the data so far; along with my personal experience shooting bigger calibers; along with the cost of becoming as good with larger calibers; along with I don't want a bullet to exit and hit someone else: is the basis for what I do.

To paraphrase Paul " Others with different experiences, knowledge, background, abilities, etc. can clearly have another opinion that's right for them.
 
#175 ·
True 3J and served well in displaying the difference in kinetic energy between a .22 Stinger and a purpose built 9mm self defense round.

.22 rimfire as a carry piece reminds me of what I've heard pilots say about the Piper J-3 Cub. It has just enough horsepower to get you to the scene of the accident ;)

Frank
 
#178 ·
If that is all you can shoot and handle, then it is a good choice. I'm a senior, handicapped and will rely on my .22 revolver. Get the hardest, heaviest, fastest round you can find (hyper/40+ gr solid). I stoke CCI Velocitors, but there might be others that are the same or better. Just what I have on hand. Practicing, you won't feel much difference in recoil. But, the perp will feel a heavy 40 gr hyper over a lighter 36gr HP (no penetration) or even a Stinger that will flatten before it enters.
 
#185 ·
I love guns, and have been a shooter since my early days. But I am somewhat distressed at what have seen in the changes in the gun community driven by corporate greed in the past 20 years or so.

I’ll start by being very brutally honest; I’m a mixed race, former gang member from a very bad part of Washington D.C.. I have taken part in criminal activities in my teenage years, and most the guys I grew up with ended up in either prison, or the cemetery. The leading cause of death of young men in D.C., is gunfire. By the time I was 18 I had lost three friends to gunshots. Two were killed in gang vs gang activities, one was killed ironically being mugged when he got a job in the government and moved out to the Maryland suburbs and was shot in a metro parking garage in Silver Spring, Maryland. The only way I avoided that fate was I had an uncle that ‘convinced’ me to enlist in the service and get out of town. I owe him my life, as well as Sgt. First Class Mouton, a mentor who for some reason who saw something in me worth saving. I went strait and went on to live a pretty normal life.

But I see the gun shop guru’s brainlessly parroting the gun magazine guru’s, many of who have never had to use a gun in real world self defense. They are selling guns that the new naive buyers don’t really need, and will rarely if ever carry. Too big, too heavy, too much recoil to shoot fast and acurrite for the little amount of practice they will do once the new enthusiasm wears off. Yeah, I know, a gun is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable. But…why not both?

Growing up in what most people would call a bad part of town, what looking back I’d call a ghetto, there was lots of guns around. No matter that D.C. was as much an anti gun place as NYC, or anywhere in New Jersey, people were people, and they wanted to protect themselves. Small guns that didn’t cost much were the rule. Since these were not guns from a real gun shop, they came from the ‘gun guy.’ The guy you met by the trash dumpsters out back of the bowling ally or bar you frequented. You didn’t know the gun guy, and he didn’t want to know you. No names. But it was agreed on, if you got caught with the gun, you said you bought it from a guy at a bar that was hard up for money. If you had to use it, you tossed it in the river after and said nothing. Not like that idiot in the NYC subway shooting that actually turned himself in.

The most popular guns were the little German made RG .22 revolvers. They went bang everytinme, and at the close range most shootings took place, accuracy didn’t matter. Shooting at little more than arms length, minute of angle don’t matter. Another popular gun was the little Italian made .25acp’s. Galesi and the FIE Titan were around. Pocket size and effective. Which brings me to the point.

I was involved in one shooting with a little palm size .22 derringer. My friend Eli was shot in the stomach with a .22 RG. Our friend Al was killed by a little teenage crack head with a Raven .25. I first hand witnessed a shooting outside a bar where the deceased tried to use a strait razor on someone, and got shot three times with a RG.22. All in all, I never saw, or heard of, anyone who got shot with a .22 or .25 center of mass, dancing around afterward. In fact, I never heard of anyone not going down for the count, regardless of what some self inflated magazine guru said. Shootings were about 5 to 8 feet in range, and it was all over in a few seconds and a few shots, one way or the other. And it didn’t seem to matter what kind of gun you used, if you shot first and hit, then you got to live. When my friend Eli was gut shot one time, he crumbled and was out fit. He survived, but later in the hospital I asked him if he could have run or done anything. He said; “No man, it was like a white hot soldering iron twisting around in my guts.” Eli was a good 6 foot and 200 pound guy. He was taken right down the itty bitty .22.

I like to practice once a week. I go to local shooting ranges and I see a lot of atrocious shooting. Mostly by people shooting one of the “in” guns from Sig, Glock, or whatever, and its all they can do to keep most of their rounds inside the black on a full size silhouette at 10 yards, slowly aiming and taking their time. And they still manage to get rounds off in the white. There seems to be a direct correlation to how bad they shoot as to caliber. The 9mm people are barely passable. The .40 crowd is outright bad, while the more compact .380 shooters like Ruger LCP, Glock 42, the little Sig number whatever, are terrible. The little .380 crowd is a lot of women who can’t deal with the snappy .380’s. On multiple occasions now, I’ve been approached by a female shooter wanting to know what kind of gun I’m shooing that all the holes are in the middle. When I show them a .22, I’ve let them try it, and almost immediately they want one. After just a few cylinders of ammo, their shooting improves noticeably. Even a few men shooters did way way better with a .22. They then went to gun counter of the ranges gun shop and tried to trade in their gun for one like my .22. They of course got the speech of how a .22 will just make someone mad and it has zero stopping power. This from a gun guru that has never shot anyone in their sheltered little world.

Over the past few years, I and my wife have taught/retrained/influenced 11 women we met on shooting ranges to trade in their guns on a good quality .22 that they actually enjoy shooting. Ruger LCR’s, Smith and Wesson 317’s, NAA Black Widow’s, seem to be popular with them. A few even sprang for a Combo of a Ruger LCR .22 and a smaller NAA .22 for pocket carry when the Ruger may be a bit big for a date or business carry.

Unless you’re the Lone Ranger bringing justice to the frontier, or some other Hollywood action hero, it seems like most people going about their life going to the office, stopping on the way home to pick a pizza for the kids, picking up the dry cleaning, or taking the wife and kids for a walk in the park, would be better served by a small pocket size .22 that they can actually shoot well and enjoy practicing. Not to mention can just be dropped in a pocket holster in the pants with no trouble, so it will actually be there in case of a problem. Leave the bigger guns to the tactical Tommy’s that think they are Steven Sagal taking on a trainload of terrorists . I know that in the past 30 plus years of carrying one or two NAA mini .22’s, they have worked on two occasions of stopping a crime. My wife stopped a car jacking at a gas station with her little S&W 317.

This is just my own opinion from a earlier life in a crappy ghetto and first hand at real violence. I was a criminal and teenage gang member and street thug. I've seen people shot, and I've shot someone once. All I can go on is what I've actually experienced and seen first hand.
Thanks for having the balls to step out and admit your early life and share the things you learned. On the flip side I knew a guy that was shot with a 22 LR and did not even know he had been shot!

Truth is there are no easy answers to this one other than SOME gun is better than NO gun! There could be another answer.

Before his death Col Jeff Cooper (the .45 ACP and 10 mm guru) said he had been testing the 22 mag and was a little embarrassed that he was impressed. The 22 mag recoils only slightly more than the 22 LR but it is much louder as it is really loaded as a rifle round. Personally I do not think that would be noticed in a real gun fight.

Personally I have had to draw a gun twice in my life. Thank goodness I did not have to shoot either time.
 
#189 ·
Another here that given the choice will choose a larger caliber for self defense.
I bought a Colt Government .380 decades ago for a summertime easy to conceal carry piece and I have much more confidence in that over a .22 rimfire.

Sure a .22 rimfire can kill you and is a better choice than no firearm at all BUT all the excuses trying to justify the .22rimfire as being a better choice are just that someone trying to justify to themselves or someone else why they chose it not based off of its a better choice.

My definition of self defense is first at a close range where avoiding the confrontation is not an option.
Will generally end in a matter of seconds and is not some tv Hollywood firefight that will range over multiple rounds fired and include several magazine changes/reloads.
And the bigger the hole and amount of damage done by the bullet I fire that hits my attacker the quicker the probability of ending the engagement in my favor.

We can each carry what we feel comfortable with, more often I carry a .357 magnum revolver these days but trying to convince me that a .22 rimfire is a GOOD CHOICE for self defense I will agree its better than nothing but there are many better options when you are depending on it to save your life over the .22rimfire.
For decades in most cases my concealed weapon of choice was a 1911 .45acp!
 
#188 · (Edited)
I've shared this before... Not sure if I had shared it in this forum though. EDIT: Yes, I did share this story on Pg 4 of this thread... Sorry for the repeat.

I know of a co-worker that volunteered to be shot with a mini revolver in 22 short while wearing a circa 1980's police bullet proof vest. Yes, alcohol was involved.

He was part of a soft ball league that had many public works, fire, and police teams. Post season they had a big weekend camp out. Somehow the subject of firearms and backup guns came about. One of the officers had the mini 22 short with him. All scoffed at what it was capable of. At one point my co-worker volunteered to put the vest on and be shot in the chest at 10 feet. The owner of the gun fired it, it hit him in the right pectoral a couple inches above the nipple. It knocked the wind out of him, and he dropped gasping and in pain. Scared both the gun owner and the bystanders. Fortunately, there was a paramedic on the campout that checked him out and told him he should see the doctor.

I did not witness the incident, but I saw the bruising the next Monday and heard the story directly from the co-worker. The bruise covered the pectoral muscle, down to the lower ribcage, up to the collarbone with a silver dollar sized dark spot at the impact area. I believed his story at the time, and I still believe it now... He was a big bruit of a guy, athletic and maybe not the brightest of individuals.

So, if someone says these mini's will only make some big dude mad, I've heard otherwise.
 
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