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Real world .22 self defense.

43K views 201 replies 83 participants last post by  gmd1950 
#1 · (Edited)
I love guns, and have been a shooter since my early days. But I am somewhat distressed at what have seen in the changes in the gun community driven by corporate greed in the past 20 years or so.

I’ll start by being very brutally honest; I’m a mixed race, former gang member from a very bad part of Washington D.C.. I have taken part in criminal activities in my teenage years, and most the guys I grew up with ended up in either prison, or the cemetery. The leading cause of death of young men in D.C., is gunfire. By the time I was 18 I had lost three friends to gunshots. Two were killed in gang vs gang activities, one was killed ironically being mugged when he got a job in the government and moved out to the Maryland suburbs and was shot in a metro parking garage in Silver Spring, Maryland. The only way I avoided that fate was I had an uncle that ‘convinced’ me to enlist in the service and get out of town. I owe him my life, as well as Sgt. First Class Mouton, a mentor who for some reason who saw something in me worth saving. I went strait and went on to live a pretty normal life.

But I see the gun shop guru’s brainlessly parroting the gun magazine guru’s, many of who have never had to use a gun in real world self defense. They are selling guns that the new naive buyers don’t really need, and will rarely if ever carry. Too big, too heavy, too much recoil to shoot fast and acurrite for the little amount of practice they will do once the new enthusiasm wears off. Yeah, I know, a gun is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable. But…why not both?

Growing up in what most people would call a bad part of town, what looking back I’d call a ghetto, there was lots of guns around. No matter that D.C. was as much an anti gun place as NYC, or anywhere in New Jersey, people were people, and they wanted to protect themselves. Small guns that didn’t cost much were the rule. Since these were not guns from a real gun shop, they came from the ‘gun guy.’ The guy you met by the trash dumpsters out back of the bowling ally or bar you frequented. You didn’t know the gun guy, and he didn’t want to know you. No names. But it was agreed on, if you got caught with the gun, you said you bought it from a guy at a bar that was hard up for money. If you had to use it, you tossed it in the river after and said nothing. Not like that idiot in the NYC subway shooting that actually turned himself in.

The most popular guns were the little German made RG .22 revolvers. They went bang everytinme, and at the close range most shootings took place, accuracy didn’t matter. Shooting at little more than arms length, minute of angle don’t matter. Another popular gun was the little Italian made .25acp’s. Galesi and the FIE Titan were around. Pocket size and effective. Which brings me to the point.

I was involved in one shooting with a little palm size .22 derringer. My friend Eli was shot in the stomach with a .22 RG. Our friend Al was killed by a little teenage crack head with a Raven .25. I first hand witnessed a shooting outside a bar where the deceased tried to use a strait razor on someone, and got shot three times with a RG.22. All in all, I never saw, or heard of, anyone who got shot with a .22 or .25 center of mass, dancing around afterward. In fact, I never heard of anyone not going down for the count, regardless of what some self inflated magazine guru said. Shootings were about 5 to 8 feet in range, and it was all over in a few seconds and a few shots, one way or the other. And it didn’t seem to matter what kind of gun you used, if you shot first and hit, then you got to live. When my friend Eli was gut shot one time, he crumbled and was out fit. He survived, but later in the hospital I asked him if he could have run or done anything. He said; “No man, it was like a white hot soldering iron twisting around in my guts.” Eli was a good 6 foot and 200 pound guy. He was taken right down the itty bitty .22.

I like to practice once a week. I go to local shooting ranges and I see a lot of atrocious shooting. Mostly by people shooting one of the “in” guns from Sig, Glock, or whatever, and its all they can do to keep most of their rounds inside the black on a full size silhouette at 10 yards, slowly aiming and taking their time. And they still manage to get rounds off in the white. There seems to be a direct correlation to how bad they shoot as to caliber. The 9mm people are barely passable. The .40 crowd is outright bad, while the more compact .380 shooters like Ruger LCP, Glock 42, the little Sig number whatever, are terrible. The little .380 crowd is a lot of women who can’t deal with the snappy .380’s. On multiple occasions now, I’ve been approached by a female shooter wanting to know what kind of gun I’m shooing that all the holes are in the middle. When I show them a .22, I’ve let them try it, and almost immediately they want one. After just a few cylinders of ammo, their shooting improves noticeably. Even a few men shooters did way way better with a .22. They then went to gun counter of the ranges gun shop and tried to trade in their gun for one like my .22. They of course got the speech of how a .22 will just make someone mad and it has zero stopping power. This from a gun guru that has never shot anyone in their sheltered little world.

Over the past few years, I and my wife have taught/retrained/influenced 11 women we met on shooting ranges to trade in their guns on a good quality .22 that they actually enjoy shooting. Ruger LCR’s, Smith and Wesson 317’s, NAA Black Widow’s, seem to be popular with them. A few even sprang for a Combo of a Ruger LCR .22 and a smaller NAA .22 for pocket carry when the Ruger may be a bit big for a date or business carry.

Unless you’re the Lone Ranger bringing justice to the frontier, or some other Hollywood action hero, it seems like most people going about their life going to the office, stopping on the way home to pick a pizza for the kids, picking up the dry cleaning, or taking the wife and kids for a walk in the park, would be better served by a small pocket size .22 that they can actually shoot well and enjoy practicing. Not to mention can just be dropped in a pocket holster in the pants with no trouble, so it will actually be there in case of a problem. Leave the bigger guns to the tactical Tommy’s that think they are Steven Sagal taking on a trainload of terrorists . I know that in the past 30 plus years of carrying one or two NAA mini .22’s, they have worked on two occasions of stopping a crime. My wife stopped a car jacking at a gas station with her little S&W 317.

This is just my own opinion from a earlier life in a crappy ghetto and first hand at real violence. I was a criminal and teenage gang member and street thug. I've seen people shot, and I've shot someone once. All I can go on is what I've actually experienced and seen first hand.
 
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#83 ·
"But unless you're 90 years old it's not a substitute for using a larger handgun properly."

You must be a young person that hasn't been around older folks much to make a statement like that. I'll leave it at saying you have a lot to learn about aging if you actually believe what you posted.

This horse, using a 22 LR for self defense, has been beaten so long on so many forums that there is nothing left but a few hairs and bone chips but it always manages to rise from the dead again---and again---and again.
 
#90 ·
You must be a young person that hasn't been around older folks much to make a statement like that. I'll leave it at saying you have a lot to learn about aging if you actually believe what you posted.
I know plenty, but thank you for your concern. Yes I know there are 90 year-olds out there who could still beat the crap out of a 30 year-old, but not everyone who reaches that milestone is still blessed with good health. If you or whoever you are referring to is still able to handle a .45 at that age, more power to you or him.
 
#87 ·
A highly debated topic, yes. The debate gives people who don't have the knowledge different opinions. Then they get to make up their own mind. Choose what you are willing to carry otherwise it will sit at home doing you no good. It also is good if you can actually hit something with it.
 
#91 · (Edited)
The caliber argument is eternal. That being said...i do not feel comfortable relying on a 22lr for self defense when I can get 10 rnd's of 9mm in a sub compact. I realize ALL shot placement is Critical. I believe the larger the caliber, the more shock to the body/central nervous system....the smaller...the more precise the shot needs to be... I do not trust myself to make precise shots in a gun battle. I'm just hoping to hit the threat.... center mass....
 
#93 ·
The caliber argument is eternal. That being said...i do not feel comfortable relying on a 22lr for self defense when I can get 10 rnd's of 9mm in a sub compact.
If you're sufficiently into guns that you're actively reading gun forums then the arguments in favor of using a .22LR as a defense weapon probably don't apply to you. My mother is nearly 80, has bad arthritis in the hands and could never handle a subcompact 9mm. If a .22 pistol is the most she can handle, then that's still a helluva lot better than relying on pepper spray or a LifeAlert button.
 
#94 ·
For a little perspective the same argument is going on in Alaska. In this case it is 10mm semi autos vs 44 mag (considered minimum) and up revolvers and big bear protection. The 10 mm carries more rounds and is more controllable. The short barreled revolvers have enough power to get the bear off you if he has you. Bears are not people. Wounded compounds the problem where a person not on drugs may well consider the fact that he or she is hurt and may die if they don't get medical attention.
By the way a record book bear was killed with a 22 long placed precisely.
I have an LCR in 22lr (Velocitors or Interceptors) and in 38 spl (148 grain wadcutters). Wadcutters are very controllable with good penetration. JHP expansion in the short barrels is iffy and usually cuts penetration. 3" barrels are considerably better than 2" in all calibers. Look at the LCRX.
My pocket gun is a Keltec P32 loaded with Euro fmj. 7+1 and a 10 round backup. I just picked up an LCP2 in 22lr. My wife is limited to 22lr and cant pull a double action trigger so maybe she will carry it. Pretty happy with it so far but no where near carry until it gets a lot more rounds. Definitely likes 40 grain or heavier. I just wish Ruger would make the LCP2 in 32 ACP. We have been practicing at bedroom distances with Ruger 10-22's. She is fast and accurate with the rifle and a braced Charger. The rifle with a red dot is her go to for home defense. I have been getting more and more impressed with the Charger and rifle for home defense.
 
#95 ·
Might try the sw ez in 380. Very light rack and trigger.

I have a lcr in 327 mag that i use for my back up.

Here in Chicago Land the survival rate of those shot is outstanding. A 22 is the equivalent of a horsefly bite around here.

As for assailants running away at the sight of a gun or after being shot that’s probably true 99 out 100 times, but its that 100th one that thinks like a bear that im concerned about:eek:
 
#101 ·
From what I've read and heard, the data against felons shows that it takes over 1.5 rounds regardless of caliber.

Because a 22 is likely to hit them 60% of the time on the first shot. Whereas a bigger caliber is is likely to hit them 40% of the time of the first shot. Whatever your caliber, plan on two shots.

And if there are multiple bad guys, you might want more than a revolver.
 
#102 ·
Because a 22 is likely to hit them 60% of the time on the first shot. Whereas a bigger caliber is is likely to hit them 40% of the time of the first shot.
Please explain that to me. I can understand that may be the case with a follow-up shot (and then just maybe because once you are back on target you are back on target, the only difference being the time and effort to get there) but how does the caliber affect the accuracy of the first shot?
 
#107 ·
.32 acp a common gun in Europe

As I understand it, the .32 acp was a very common handgun in Europe for many years. Maybe one reason why schadavi says it was the most often carried. So many used guns like it around. As long as you use the full length 71-73 gr. hardball you should not have to worry much about rim lock. That is much more apt to happen with the 60 gr. H.P. cartridges. And those hollow points seldom open up at mouse gun barrel lengths anyway. I also carry the Kel-Tec P-32, every day.
 
#108 ·
I'd think the main appeal of the 32acp would be there size... Personally, I find shooting PP and PPK in 32acp "snappier" than a G17/G19 in 9mm.

If you are going to make something dumb/inexperienced proof, a small Ruger LCR is probably as good as it gets.
- Don't have to worry about limp-wristing and jamming or getting caught on something
- Just point and shoot

 
#120 ·
I'd think the main appeal of the 32acp would be there size... Personally, I find shooting PP and PPK in 32acp "snappier" than a G17/G19 in 9mm.
Yep, blowback guns like my Beretta 81BB and my departed NAA Guardian have some snap to them. Especially that Guardian.

My locked breech Taurus TCP732 is a surprisingly soft shooter in comparison to other 21st century centerfire pocket guns.

I sure with there were more locked breech .32 ACP pistols in the USA to choose from. The KelTec P32 might be the last one available.
 
#109 · (Edited)
I agree that revolvers are as foolproof as possible

I agree that revolvers are as foolproof as possible. I carry the Kel-Tec P-32 as it is smaller than the smallest J-Frame S&W revolvers and does not print when I carry it. I have probably six of the J-Frame revolvers and like them a lot. Some pant pockets can take one ok, others not too well as either the gun prints a lot or the top of the grip shows from some angles. In Florida 7 months and on Cape Cod 5 months, I am almost always wearing shorts and pocket carried just makes sense.

Edit: I want to add to this post that I also will carry from time to time an old Ruger LCP .380 acp pistol or a S&W Bodyguard .380 pistol. They take up about the same space as the .32 Kel-Tec but weigh a bit more.
 
#113 ·
The 22lr can be very effective. The problem is it requires a different aim point than something larger. Knowing the capabilities of your round means a lot. If a body hit is effective but too slow then don't shoot them there. I feel very well protected by a 22 when I choose to carry it. I train to shoot where I'm looking and in a situaltion I won't be looking at an endless expanse of chest. I always felt that a 22 in the teeth (or nearby) would change anyones mind about whatever they had planned.
 
#114 ·
With today's 22 ammo like Federal's "Punch" and CCI "Velocitor" carrying a 22 for self defense is more common and more effective. I carry a S&W EZ 9 but 9s are getting expensive.

I'm looking for a nice 22 revolver to pack. I have plenty of ammo for it with two bricks of Velocitors and another brick of Punch. Now I need a smaller 22 to shoot them in instead of my Ruger Mark IV 22/45.
 
#122 ·
I have 6 variations of Beretta Model 70/101, and I've happily carried all but the 101. Eight or ten rounds of CCI Mini-Mag, in the right spot, will do wonders for your personal safety.
I can put 8-10 rounds in a quick fist-sized group at 25'. I've carried one plenty of times.
 
#123 ·
With almost no recoil to recover from, you can most likely do that way faster than with a compact center fire like a Glock 43 or Ruger LCP. My Ruger LCP was so snappy that accurate fast shooting was hard to do. But with a Beretta 21 or the Ruger LCR in .22, I could get the whole magazine or cylinder in the center of a half size silhouette fast than with other guns.

As I got older, I grew more to appreciate how easy it is to rapidly get a bunch of rounds on target. And yes, those CCI's will stop what is going on.
 
#124 ·
Paul, and JMB, also think the 25 acp is as good or better than a 22 lr out of short barrel.

If I had to choose between a 22 lr and a 25 acp for a pocket pistol, id take the 25 acp. Centerfire is more reliable than 22 lr,

But , for now, I have bigger more powerful and better for me , choices.

If the assailant is moving, and They usually are , your likely/ lucky to get one “ get off me”shot, not 19 like on a stationary target.

But to each, his/ her own:bthumb:
 
#125 ·
Paul, and JMB, also think the 25 acp is as good or better than a 22 lr out of short barrel.

If I had to choose between a 22 lr and a 25 acp for a pocket pistol, id take the 25 acp. Centerfire is more reliable than 22 lr,

But , for now, I have bigger more powerful and better for me , choices.

If the assailant is moving, and They usually are , your likely/ lucky to get one " get off me"shot, not 19 like on a stationary target.

But to each, his/ her own:bthumb:
Why stop at one get off me shot? Unload the magazine and when the police ask why you shot them 16 times say "I ran out of bullets".
 
#132 ·
To me, the greatest argument against a rimfire for SD is uncertain ignition. I say this because I have fired many thousands of centerfire rounds and have had exactly one primer not ignite. That was on my own reload and I never did figure out why. With rimfire I have experienced dozens of failure to fire over the years. Just food for thought.
gkn
 
#134 ·
To me, the greatest argument against a rimfire for SD is uncertain ignition. I say this because I have fired many thousands of centerfire rounds and have had exactly one primer not ignite. That was on my own reload and I never did figure out why. With rimfire I have experienced dozens of failure to fire over the years. Just food for thought.
gkn
I've had no primer failures with .22 WMR ammo so far. Probably due to the fact the .22 WMR ammo I've bought over the years seems to have been quality made ammo.
 
#136 · (Edited)
So this is still going on I guess.......

I believe I have the perfect solution to this topic that endlessly comes up.

How about if you feel comfortable with carrying a .22 for self defense then carry a .22 for self defense (or a knife).

If you feel more comfortable with carrying a centerfire round for self defense then carry something that shoots a centerfire round for self defense.

Seems simple enough, lol.
 
#139 ·
So this is still going on I guess.......

I believe I have the perfect solution to this topic that endlessly comes up.

How about if you feel comfortable with carrying a .22 for self defense then carry a .22 for self defense (or a knife).

If you feel more comfortable with carrying a centerfire round for self defense then carry something that shoots a centerfire round for self defense.

Seems simple enough, lol.
When people say the world is flat, you must disagree. Otherwise they will fall off the edge:D
 
#140 ·
Once again https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

"Over a 10-year period, I kept track of stopping power results from every shooting I could find. I talked to the participants of gunfights, read police reports, attended autopsies, and scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot.

I documented all of the data I could; tracking caliber, type of bullet (if known), where the bullet hit and whether or not the person was incapacitated. I also tracked fatalities, noting which bullets were more likely to kill and which were not. It was an exhaustive project, but I'm glad I did it and I'm happy to report the results of my study here."

22 (short, long and long rifle)
# of people shot - 154
# of hits - 213
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
One-shot-stop % - 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%

Compares pretty well to the other calibers
 
#144 · (Edited)
Once again https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

"Over a 10-year period, I kept track of stopping power results from every shooting I could find. I talked to the participants of gunfights, read police reports, attended autopsies, and scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot.

I documented all of the data I could; tracking caliber, type of bullet (if known), where the bullet hit and whether or not the person was incapacitated. I also tracked fatalities, noting which bullets were more likely to kill and which were not. It was an exhaustive project, but I'm glad I did it and I'm happy to report the results of my study here."

22 (short, long and long rifle)
# of people shot - 154
# of hits - 213
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
One-shot-stop % - 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%

Compares pretty well to the other calibers
From the article, "What percentage of people were not incapacitated no matter how many rounds hit them."

Interesting how .32 ACP and smaller cartridges performed poorly in that statistic.

Which essentially tells me what I've kind of known for a while. That my .32 ACP pocket pistols are about as powerful as a snub nosed .22 Magnum, or a longer barreled pistol in .22 LR.

I gotta admit, I like jacketed bullets in this situation. At least .22 magnum gives me that option, but so do the small centerfire cartridges.
 
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