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Real world .22 self defense.

43K views 201 replies 83 participants last post by  gmd1950 
#1 · (Edited)
I love guns, and have been a shooter since my early days. But I am somewhat distressed at what have seen in the changes in the gun community driven by corporate greed in the past 20 years or so.

I’ll start by being very brutally honest; I’m a mixed race, former gang member from a very bad part of Washington D.C.. I have taken part in criminal activities in my teenage years, and most the guys I grew up with ended up in either prison, or the cemetery. The leading cause of death of young men in D.C., is gunfire. By the time I was 18 I had lost three friends to gunshots. Two were killed in gang vs gang activities, one was killed ironically being mugged when he got a job in the government and moved out to the Maryland suburbs and was shot in a metro parking garage in Silver Spring, Maryland. The only way I avoided that fate was I had an uncle that ‘convinced’ me to enlist in the service and get out of town. I owe him my life, as well as Sgt. First Class Mouton, a mentor who for some reason who saw something in me worth saving. I went strait and went on to live a pretty normal life.

But I see the gun shop guru’s brainlessly parroting the gun magazine guru’s, many of who have never had to use a gun in real world self defense. They are selling guns that the new naive buyers don’t really need, and will rarely if ever carry. Too big, too heavy, too much recoil to shoot fast and acurrite for the little amount of practice they will do once the new enthusiasm wears off. Yeah, I know, a gun is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable. But…why not both?

Growing up in what most people would call a bad part of town, what looking back I’d call a ghetto, there was lots of guns around. No matter that D.C. was as much an anti gun place as NYC, or anywhere in New Jersey, people were people, and they wanted to protect themselves. Small guns that didn’t cost much were the rule. Since these were not guns from a real gun shop, they came from the ‘gun guy.’ The guy you met by the trash dumpsters out back of the bowling ally or bar you frequented. You didn’t know the gun guy, and he didn’t want to know you. No names. But it was agreed on, if you got caught with the gun, you said you bought it from a guy at a bar that was hard up for money. If you had to use it, you tossed it in the river after and said nothing. Not like that idiot in the NYC subway shooting that actually turned himself in.

The most popular guns were the little German made RG .22 revolvers. They went bang everytinme, and at the close range most shootings took place, accuracy didn’t matter. Shooting at little more than arms length, minute of angle don’t matter. Another popular gun was the little Italian made .25acp’s. Galesi and the FIE Titan were around. Pocket size and effective. Which brings me to the point.

I was involved in one shooting with a little palm size .22 derringer. My friend Eli was shot in the stomach with a .22 RG. Our friend Al was killed by a little teenage crack head with a Raven .25. I first hand witnessed a shooting outside a bar where the deceased tried to use a strait razor on someone, and got shot three times with a RG.22. All in all, I never saw, or heard of, anyone who got shot with a .22 or .25 center of mass, dancing around afterward. In fact, I never heard of anyone not going down for the count, regardless of what some self inflated magazine guru said. Shootings were about 5 to 8 feet in range, and it was all over in a few seconds and a few shots, one way or the other. And it didn’t seem to matter what kind of gun you used, if you shot first and hit, then you got to live. When my friend Eli was gut shot one time, he crumbled and was out fit. He survived, but later in the hospital I asked him if he could have run or done anything. He said; “No man, it was like a white hot soldering iron twisting around in my guts.” Eli was a good 6 foot and 200 pound guy. He was taken right down the itty bitty .22.

I like to practice once a week. I go to local shooting ranges and I see a lot of atrocious shooting. Mostly by people shooting one of the “in” guns from Sig, Glock, or whatever, and its all they can do to keep most of their rounds inside the black on a full size silhouette at 10 yards, slowly aiming and taking their time. And they still manage to get rounds off in the white. There seems to be a direct correlation to how bad they shoot as to caliber. The 9mm people are barely passable. The .40 crowd is outright bad, while the more compact .380 shooters like Ruger LCP, Glock 42, the little Sig number whatever, are terrible. The little .380 crowd is a lot of women who can’t deal with the snappy .380’s. On multiple occasions now, I’ve been approached by a female shooter wanting to know what kind of gun I’m shooing that all the holes are in the middle. When I show them a .22, I’ve let them try it, and almost immediately they want one. After just a few cylinders of ammo, their shooting improves noticeably. Even a few men shooters did way way better with a .22. They then went to gun counter of the ranges gun shop and tried to trade in their gun for one like my .22. They of course got the speech of how a .22 will just make someone mad and it has zero stopping power. This from a gun guru that has never shot anyone in their sheltered little world.

Over the past few years, I and my wife have taught/retrained/influenced 11 women we met on shooting ranges to trade in their guns on a good quality .22 that they actually enjoy shooting. Ruger LCR’s, Smith and Wesson 317’s, NAA Black Widow’s, seem to be popular with them. A few even sprang for a Combo of a Ruger LCR .22 and a smaller NAA .22 for pocket carry when the Ruger may be a bit big for a date or business carry.

Unless you’re the Lone Ranger bringing justice to the frontier, or some other Hollywood action hero, it seems like most people going about their life going to the office, stopping on the way home to pick a pizza for the kids, picking up the dry cleaning, or taking the wife and kids for a walk in the park, would be better served by a small pocket size .22 that they can actually shoot well and enjoy practicing. Not to mention can just be dropped in a pocket holster in the pants with no trouble, so it will actually be there in case of a problem. Leave the bigger guns to the tactical Tommy’s that think they are Steven Sagal taking on a trainload of terrorists . I know that in the past 30 plus years of carrying one or two NAA mini .22’s, they have worked on two occasions of stopping a crime. My wife stopped a car jacking at a gas station with her little S&W 317.

This is just my own opinion from a earlier life in a crappy ghetto and first hand at real violence. I was a criminal and teenage gang member and street thug. I've seen people shot, and I've shot someone once. All I can go on is what I've actually experienced and seen first hand.
 
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#37 ·
I have a very hard time getting a Gatling Gun in my hip pocket----
thus i have a Sig 365, Glock 42, and LCP 22lr. All carried based on
weather, clothes, circumstances, and environment.
Not up for consideration are Jennings 22lr. Beretta 21-A ( external hammer).
Any of several 19's.
I am blessed in that I have and can have several to chose from, however as that
joke goes, "If I was expecting trouble I'd have a battalion of Marines" SO....
Chose and use what you are comfy with, have it with you, be aware of your
surroundings, stay out of bad places and be of strong mindset!
Now lets discuss the 9mm vs the 45 ACP!!:bthumb::bthumb:
God Bless you all for caring enough to and for contributing here.
 
#38 ·
Been thinking about this a lot.

I believe that there has been a trend lately to smaller-caliber, lower-recoiling self-defense handguns as more and more people of diverse size and strength are buying and carrying for personal protection. I have noticed this in magazine articles and ads.

IMO and IME there is no question that a bigger diameter and/or heavier bullet has more knockdown power. Also, it has been demonstrated that slower bullets sometimes have greater penetration.

There are some considerations that have not been mentioned, such as shoot-thru and extreme muzzle-blast that could cause hearing loss in a confined space (inside a vehicle.)

There is also the concept of risk. For example, I don't consider a trip to the farm store to buy some deer corn as high risk (just carry the P17 I already have on.) Taking an extended trip, going to a bigger city, or traveling at night I would consider as higher risk (Glock 9mm.)

There is of course the concealability issue. I carry a NAA Black Widow if I can't conceal something bigger. Except in very hottest part of the summer, however, I can conceal carry a G19.

In a vehicle, concealability is not a big issue, so I sometimes carry a 9 in the vehicle and something smaller on my person. One of my biggest concerns is the possibility of a car jacking.

Almost everything in life is a compromise; we make our own compromises.
 
#39 ·
Depending on where you reside, your carry needs will vary. If 99 out of 100 potential attackers are skinny soy boys, then a 22 will suffice unless you hit the 1 out of 100 and then the odds move against you. If you live in a criminal muscle bound community, carry a 45 ACP if you're not allowed to carry an AK. If you live in an area where gangs frequently jump people, don't walk alone and do carry a pistol with high capacity magazine and a backup mag also. If you are thinking of being a tourist in a riot, don't. Just go home and watch a scary movie. If you're visiting a remote wooded area near the Canadian border, wolf packs, bears and wild dog packs will be your potential threat. Carry accordingly.

Stay away from danger. If you're in danger, get out of danger quickly. If you can drive away, do so. If you need to run over a threat, do so. Save yourself and your family. Use your carry weapon to fight your way to your long gun.

Prepare for the dangers but try to avoid them.
 
#40 · (Edited)
So totally out of tou h with reality. Muscle bound community?

Let me take you for a walk down what they call Austin's 'dirty 6th street' and I'll buy you a steak dinner at Salt Grass if you can find me one street guy who will mug you in a heart beat, that isn't a skinny strung out doper or alcoholic over 150 pounds. But when they get the shakes, and they need that next fix, they will pick up a rock or brick, cheap knife, or steel pipe and clobber you in a heart beat for some meth/booze money.

As for your .45acp, when it blows right on through the skinny drug addict and goes on down the street and kills some bystander, you will own that bullet. Spare the macho gun magazine drivel about fighting your way to the long gun, by that time its all over.

Gangs? It won't matter what kind of gun you have, because after the first shot, they will be scattering like roaches when the light comes on. Go watch some real footage of civilian shootings on that Youtube channel Active Self protection of something like that. Criminals are cowards by nature and looking for an easy kill. The second armed resistance is given, they run like hell. By the time your first shot drops one, and he hits the ground, the others will be running off like Olympic sprinters. The standard MO is, tow or so are the 'action' guys, one or two lookouts, and a getaway driver. The 'lookouts' are very rarely armed, and they will never come to the aid of the guy getting shot. Like I said, at the sound of the first shot, they scatter like a puff of smoke in the wind. Standing there fighting off a gang while ankle deep in warm brass is gun magazine fantasy.

I grew up on D.C.'s 14th street. There wasn't anyone there going to the gym to work out. it doesn't take a lot of muscle to shove a shank in some mark's belly.

As for lions, tigers, and bears, Oh my, a nice big can of bear spray has been proven to be more effective and lighter to carry as well.
 
#43 ·
Interesting thread Jacknife, thanks for posting it. I also applaud your reformation from gang-banger to solid citizen!

Sliding precipitously off topic...Who remembers the story of the two Ft Lauderdale cops who used a Dick Casull designed American-180 .22 rimfire sub-machinegun to crumple up a pair of fleeing bad guys back in the 70s'?

A heartwarming tale :bthumb:

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/the-american-180-submachine-gun-1200-rpm-rimfire-ripper/

Frank
 
#46 ·
FDLE was pushing those little sweet hearts when I was a Deputy in Fl., Sheriff said "Uh no thanks" but we did get an impressive demo of them...not surprised at the outcome of the shooting... this may be the only truly valuable piece of information to come from this thread.
 
#51 ·
I’ll wade in here with some observations from a lifetime of experience with handguns, and tons of rimfire shooting. Hunting and fur trapping have provided hundreds of case studies in .22 performance on a wide variety of animals caught and free-ranging.

In my experience over 40 years of rimfire shooting, I cannot recall a single FTF with CCI Mini Mags and Stingers. I have experienced sometimes frequent FTF with most other manufacturers. Out of rifle-length barrels, these two CCIs are remarkably powerful rounds. (A Ruger 10/22 loaded with CCI Stingers in high-cap magazines is a great short-range alternative to an AR-15, and you can carry far more ammo!) However, muzzle velocity of any .22 lr is dramatically lower from handguns, and ultimately their penetration and energy transfer is diminished. In my opinion, .22 lr is still better than a sharp stick or my fists.

Look at the ballistics of the .25 ACP, And you will agree this caliber is the absolute worst round for self-protection among common calibers.

Finally, I personally have much more confidence in .357 caliber and larger handgun rounds, and am quite comfortable carrying and shooting them. I still hedge my bets with the best self-defense ammo for them because ammo design has advanced remarkably in the last several years. However, I have an NAA revolver in .22 WMR loaded with Hornaday Critical Defense ammo, and it is my go-to in certain situations because it is so easy to hide. No, it’s not perfect, but a heavy or bulky gun is of no use if not on your person.

I yield the soapbox...
 
#55 ·
I LOVE

This topic! Pages and pages of insults, idiocy and idioms, never controversial and always polite! This thread has been no different. Just what we need, a good cabin fever busting, mid winter dust-up!
 
#57 ·
My two cents

I'm 71 and and like most, if not all of the Posters on here, have been shooting from an early age. Myself, I've been shooting since I was 14 years old. When I turned 14 my Dad took me to the Hockshop on 5th ave and 58th street in Brooklyn NY, where we bought my first .22 Rifle with the $20.00 of birthday money I had. It was a used Marlin Mod. 80G, which I still have to this day and it is still a tack driver, least ways on the days I can shoot it half decent anymore. The guy in the PAWN SHOP let me have it for $19.50 so I could buy a box of 50 rounds for the last 50 cents in my kitty. Over the years it's amazed me how attitudes and temperaments about guns have changed so drastically since back when. When I think back about how a 14 year old kid could get on the Bus, or a subway and ride out to Fort Hamilton Army Base with a rifle tucked under his arm, with no one even batting an eye, amazes the heck out of me. I should mention that the rifle was always carried in a rifle Bag at all time when doing this. I was a member of the NRA Junior Marksmanship Program hosted on the ARMY base back then and I've been shooting ever since. My intent isn't to evaluate anyone's posts or opinions as to which one is more right then the other, but rather point out that this is a topic that will always be subject to Preference vs Practicality. I do believe that all the posters of comments here have been shooting for a good part of their lives and are very knowledgeable about ballistics and the Lethality of calibers of weapons. I've Concealed Carried for the better part of my adult life, and my choice of carry weapon is based on a number of variables. If it's the winter I carry a larger caliber because of the weight of clothes people are wearing verses a lighter caliber in the summer based on less clothes being worn. For the most part I carry a Beretta Mod. 84 .380 cal. with a 14 round double box mag. I've taken several Personal Firearm Defense Courses and feel confident of my ability to shoot accurately in a stress situation. Then again, this is me. The problem as I see it is, people to guns are like people to a pair of shoes, where one size will NEVER fit all. I won't go into the value of practice and knowing your weapon because that's already pointed out and I would hope all would agree, that this is one of the most important aspects of owning a gun. The other point people need to consider is the ability to use their weapon, and use it efficiently in a stress/threat situation. This is why I always recommend to friends and people who I have this exact kind of conversation with to look for, and take personal/home protection firearm courses. Also, mentally practice situations in their minds of situations they might encounter where they might have to use their weapon. I think I've written enough for Y'all to see what direction I'm going in. To close, I don't think Caliber of a weapon, although important isn't as important as the persons ability to handle a stress situation, ability to put a round(s) on target in a stress situation, and most important....................BE WILLING TO ACTUALLY USE THEIR WEAPON. Even my own sister, who I think is one of the smartest people I know, told me she bought a pistol for home protection. When I asked her the WHAT IF question, she said she didn't think she could shoot anyone. You can guess how the rest of our conversation went. Simply put, when asked, "How do you get to Carnage Hall, the answer will always be, Practice, Practice.............................PRACTICE. Have a Blessed day all
 
#58 ·
Bravo

Well written.
I just had a chat with a friend yesterday that bought a 42 (.22LR) and was worried about effectiveness.
This Helps
It's interesting to hear how poorly you've seen people shoot.
Sad, they don't or can't practice more.
But I meet people all the time that claim to be firearms enthusiasts and only shoot once a year with two bullets before opening season, all the while claiming to be able to defend their home and family.
Once the ammo shortage is over, I hope to see this new group of firearms owners (8 million) get out and practice. Mostly because it just so %%%% fun.
 
#61 ·
Jack Knife, I am sorry, a by passed the most important thing. Congratulations for leaving that life behind. I thank God that there are people like the one who reached out to you out there. My son works for SO,. and he has commented that life expectancy for kids caught up in that is very hot, Late 20s is considered old. Good new on your story. What really impacted me was I am sure there are a lot of kids caught up in it and they could be you but not one has reached out. That is very sad.

What touched my heart on your story is that my wife and I ended up with custody of her great nephew, he was not quite where your were but definitely headed for trouble. (Already in juvenile at 14) It was an interesting three years to say the least. When he was Col Reyes at the local ROTC in his high school was his real mentor.
Agsin thank you for the inspiring story, the SD lesson was good to think about as well.
 
#62 ·
I really appreciate the OP's comments about the efficacy of the .22. While I do not consider myself an expert at anything I am frequently asked what I think about the .22 as a defensive round. My answer is simply that I have never heard of anyone being willing to stand in the path of a .22 round fired at them.
Shot placement is much more important than the size of the bullet.
 
#64 ·
False equivalency. Just cause noone wants to be shot with a 22 doesnt make it a self defense round. And shot placement , you need to be an expert to do that under pressure on a moving target. Masad Ayoub type of expert. From 3 feet away , you just pull point and shoot.

my grandmother in law , 4 foot 9, 85 lbs, and arthritic hands, carried a lady smith 367 in her hand bag every day. When i asked her if it didnt kick like a mule, she smiled and said " I hope it it kicks harder" I asked have you ever shot it? She said "twice, once when i got to see if it worked, and once when i had to" I stopped asking questions:eek:
 
#67 ·
Great words for thought, Jackknife. Gives us ordinary folk much to contemplate. And THANK YOU for your service. I've seen some pretty big animals put down with a .22. As they say, shot placement is key. If you can hit what you are aiming at consistently then you have a head start. Of course, throw in adrenalin and running for cover and the game changes significantly. I pray I never have to be in that situation, but I train so if I am I won't be frozen in fear.
 
#68 ·
The op has a long litany of anecdotal evidence... but it's just that.

I worked on a rough boat for a few months and had the dubious distinction of being the only one who hadn't been shot. All were shot with 22s except one, he was hit in the least vital spot but with a 357..... his scar was huge and he spent the longest time in the hospital from blood loss.

Spent some of my previous life running an er ct scanner, couldn't believe how many people have negligent discharges or get shot. (Side note, don't ever "mind your own business behind walgreens".... that's how everyone got shot.) The 22s messed up people's days, as did the FMJ 9mm. But the hollow point 9mm and bigger really messed up the tissue. Nothing compared to a 3030 shooting 150 corelocks.... that was gruesome. The knives really messed up guys guts more than the bullets did.....


Do I carry a 22lr from time to time....yes it's just so tiny. Do I prefer my bigger guns....yeah. I've hunted since the age of 6, the average muscle bound creep is the physical composition of a small black bear. I'd rather whack and stack a small black bear with bigger than smaller. Heck I dont like having to use 22lr for fox or coyote.

Is 22lr better than nothing...yes, it's always worth trying to see what the accuracy limit is for each person. Use 22lr if nothing else can possibly work.

My little tiny wife shoots a glock 42 like a boss. She probably does more rounds per year with it than ak state troopers do with their service pistols. My mom has shockingly strong hands and runs a hellcat like the ammo shortage is over... Have taught one gal to shoot that runs an lcp2 in 22lr. She's 5 foot tall with the muscle mass only a millennial could have..... so it's better than nothing but her goal is a little more muscles to step up guns.
 
#70 · (Edited)
Its a boat where the crew started each story with "one time when I was in prison", on a 5 man deck I was the only one who had never been shot, all but one had been shot more than once. The one guy I really liked on the boat killed the other with an axe to the face 2x years later. Fishing is unlike any other job, it can attract some rough characters. Some boats are a mix of rough and clean, some are pretty rough and others are hyper professional. Did my 3 week fill in stint, slept with one eye open and was glad to move on...

There is a tough customer that fishes around me, once said "hire tweakers, they can really move their arms for about 2 weeks....." he was dead pan serious.
 
#75 ·
I have carried a 22 as a daily carry for years and do not feel undergunned or helpless. I have personally known 4 men who have been shot by the .25 acp, which is a near duplicate of the .22 by design, and none of them died. However all of them without exception quit doing what they were doing before they were shot immediately and tried their best to get as far away from the person who shot them as possible.
 
#92 ·
all of them without exception quit doing what they were doing before they were shot immediately and tried their best to get as far away from the person who shot them as possible.
truth here. i like 22lr for protection in a ruger lcr or naa bugout. i enjoy practice enough to consistently hit with 22lr at legitimate self defense distances. i am home at night. i live in a non apex predator locale. i avoid stupid people & stupid activities. i can't do lots of recoil or flashbang. i am not a soldier, cop, security guard, big game guide. i just want to get off the x, and a 22lr handgun can accomplish that task for me.
 
#82 · (Edited)
Unless you're the Lone Ranger bringing justice to the frontier, or some other Hollywood action hero, it seems like most people going about their life going to the office, stopping on the way home to pick a pizza for the kids, picking up the dry cleaning, or taking the wife and kids for a walk in the park, would be better served by a small pocket size .22 that they can actually shoot well and enjoy practicing.
Easy analogy: would you rather be hit between the eyes with a golf ball or missed completely with a cannonball? Hint: the golf ball is going to hurt a hell of a lot more!!!

The .22 pistol has a use with those who are poorly trained or have a physical impairment like old age, injury or sickness, and simply cannot operate or shoot well with a larger centerfire handgun. However it doesn't change the fact that if you truly value your safety and that of your loved ones you must get proper training, after which you can easily handle firearms in a decent caliber. A .22 is better than nothing, but unless you're 90 years old it's not a substitute for learning to use a larger handgun properly.
 
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