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  #16  
Old 09-17-2020, 07:11 AM
GSRswapandslow

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with cheap ammo this is a proven benefit.

shooting good ammo is the easier answer, though
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  #17  
Old 09-17-2020, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSRswapandslow View Post
with cheap ammo this is a proven benefit.
I know right?! This is why you see Olympians, and world class shooters doing it! Hey if it can make Remington Golden Bullets minute of bear head at 3,000 yards it must work!

(tongue firmly in cheek)



There's absolutely zero proof it works with any ammo. It's a long running joke around here. A former member did a very very extensive series of these (Thanks George, miss you sir!) 3 rifles, 3 shooters 2,000 rounds of ammo over a few days. Not one bit of difference with any ammo.
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  #18  
Old 09-17-2020, 07:51 AM
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Now now FA...he may have a point.

If'n ya' was to do a serious job of rim sorting,
ya'd see all the damaged cartridges as ya' measured them.
Ya' know ya'd have to cull all the stovepipes,
and them there ones that had damaged drive bands,
and those that weighed substantially less due to lack of powder,
and especially them that had chunks missing from the nose.

Gettin' rid of all those poorly made cartridges couldn't help but improve results.

Of course ya' might not have many left when ya' were finished.
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  #19  
Old 09-17-2020, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSRswapandslow View Post
with cheap ammo this is a proven benefit.
It is? Show me the proof, I must have missed it somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
Gettin' rid of all those poorly made cartridges couldn't help but improve results.

Of course ya' might not have many left when ya' were finished.
Exactly.
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Last edited by IHMSA80x80; 09-18-2020 at 06:31 PM.
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  #20  
Old 09-18-2020, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by FlysAlot View Post
I know right?! This is why you see Olympians, and world class shooters doing it! Hey if it can make Remington Golden Bullets minute of bear head at 3,000 yards it must work!

(tongue firmly in cheek)



There's absolutely zero proof it works with any ammo. It's a long running joke around here. A former member did a very very extensive series of these (Thanks George, miss you sir!) 3 rifles, 3 shooters 2,000 rounds of ammo over a few days. Not one bit of difference with any ammo.
go try it with federal bulk.

and olympians do the second part of what i said, they use GOOD ammo in the first place...so they have no need to sort anything.
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  #21  
Old 09-18-2020, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by IHMSA80x80 View Post
It is? Show me the proof, I must have missed it sonewhere.
go buy a box of federal bulk. shoot some. sort some. shoot some more. you'll see the proof.

to me, personally, i can afford to feed my rifles a stead diet of center-x and midas, so i don't bother doing it. Others, that can't, can benefit from sorting.

This is the only group of people i've ever seen that like to argue that a VERY simple task that removes inconsistency makes a difference. If headspacing wasn't an issue, then places that headspace bolts would have nothing to do.
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  #22  
Old 09-18-2020, 09:39 AM
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let me ask a question to the guys who actually measure rim thickness...since I don't

have you ever measured the rim before and after the round had been chambered?

I've seen lots of vids of bolt bounce, so was just interested in knowing if the actual act of the round being fed and chambered can alter the rim thickness as the bolt feeds it into the chamber

I imagine it wouldn't effect a cartridge with a thinner rim at all, but was wondering about what if anything happens with the thicker rimmed ones

I suppose it would all depend on how tight the headspace is set to
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  #23  
Old 09-18-2020, 03:21 PM
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This is the only group of people i've ever seen that like to argue
that a VERY simple task that removes inconsistency doesn't make a difference.



Yep....absolutely true.

I like discussing claims of improved accuracy with rimfire.
Especially the different tweaks that might make a difference in the results.
Problem is, I actually attempt all the supposed tweaks before commenting.

Rim sorting? Yep. Waste of time.
Weight sorting? Yep. Ditto.
Cartridge length? Yep. Ditto.
Free floated barrel? Yep. Sometimes it works...sometimes it don't.
Barrel bedding? Yep. Same as the last.
Find the brand y'er rifle likes? Yep. Nope, never found the brand.
Torque settings? Yep.
Barrel blocks? Yep.
Inspect cartridges for defects before chambering? Yep.
Ballistic chronograph? Yep.
Recover fired bullets to compare strays to those that fly predictable trajectories?

Still working on that last one....some interesting results have me thinking.

It's true, I have no life and like discussing internet fables.
Especially when it's so easy to prove 'em wrong.
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  #24  
Old 09-18-2020, 04:29 PM
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I use a Julian calendar based on phases of Neptune's 14 moons and yup, couldn't hit the ground.





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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
This is the only group of people i've ever seen that like to argue
that a VERY simple task that removes inconsistency doesn't make a difference.



Yep....absolutely true.

I like discussing claims of improved accuracy with rimfire.
Especially the different tweaks that might make a difference in the results.
Problem is, I actually attempt all the supposed tweaks before commenting.

Rim sorting? Yep. Waste of time.
Weight sorting? Yep. Ditto.
Cartridge length? Yep. Ditto.
Free floated barrel? Yep. Sometimes it works...sometimes it don't.
Barrel bedding? Yep. Same as the last.
Find the brand y'er rifle likes? Yep. Nope, never found the brand.
Torque settings? Yep.
Barrel blocks? Yep.
Inspect cartridges for defects before chambering? Yep.
Ballistic chronograph? Yep.
Recover fired bullets to compare strays to those that fly predictable trajectories?

Still working on that last one....some interesting results have me thinking.

It's true, I have no life and like discussing internet fables.
Especially when it's so easy to prove 'em wrong.



DrG
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Last edited by DrGunner; 09-18-2020 at 04:32 PM.
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  #25  
Old 09-18-2020, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSRswapandslow View Post
go buy a box of federal bulk. shoot some. sort some. shoot some more. you'll see the proof.

I don't have to go buy a box of Federal and sort it. I've already been through those processes. There is absolutely no proof.

to me, personally, i can afford to feed my rifles a stead diet of center-x and midas, so i don't bother doing it. Others, that can't, can benefit from sorting.

I would never waste my funds on cheap ammo. If buying better, more expensive ammo means I shoot less, then I will at least be able to shoot accurately and not waste my time with junk.

This is the only group of people i've ever seen that like to argue that a VERY simple task that removes inconsistency makes a difference. If headspacing wasn't an issue, then places that headspace bolts would have nothing to do.
Headspace only needs to be within recommended specs, and then it is fine, doesn't need any further refinement, it is not something you can control and make benchrest winners out of 10/22's.

When you sorted your ammo by headspace, did you check the dimension at the same location on each round of ammo? Say, stick all of them in the gauge with the headstamp properly oriented? What did it read if you rotated the cartridge 180 and re-checked it? How about 90, 270, 155? If you did check, it wasn't exactly the same all around the rim.

Then which orientation did you use to chamber and fire that round? Did the headstamp oriented properly work best, or did the 180 insertion prove to be the key to improve that ammo.

Then, how do you ensure each round is chambered exactly with the "best" orientation in the chamber? Sure, you could try manually loading each round, but then what do you do with tube magazines or any other magazine to make sure those rounds don't move?

Now tell me this is proof I should sort bulk ammo.

Where can I find one of these places that headspaces bolts?
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  #26  
Old 09-18-2020, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSRswapandslow View Post
go buy a box of federal bulk. shoot some. sort some. shoot some more. you'll see the proof.

to me, personally, i can afford to feed my rifles a stead diet of center-x and midas, so i don't bother doing it. Others, that can't, can benefit from sorting.

This is the only group of people i've ever seen that like to argue that a VERY simple task that removes inconsistency makes a difference. If headspacing wasn't an issue, then places that headspace bolts would have nothing to do.
This ^^^ was a non-starter for me. Like you, mine are fed a steady diet of SK & Lapua ammo. Years ago, I tested sorting by rim thickness, weight and ES using a chrony. Velocity was the only parameter that I found useful; lots that had a low ES per box had a tendency to be more accurate- but not always.

I guess I should just consider myself lucky that I can afford decent ammo.

DrGunner
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  #27  
Old 09-18-2020, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSRswapandslow View Post
This is the only group of people i've ever seen that like to argue that a VERY simple task that removes inconsistency makes a difference
I guess this is the only group of people you've ever seen where many have actually already tried it and have all come to the same conclusion, that it makes no difference.
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  #28  
Old 09-19-2020, 11:23 AM
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It's raining. Got no choring to do. Might as well waste some more time.

So, why is rim thickness ineffective as a method of improving accuracy?

What does it accomplish? It shows variations in brass dimensions
created by sloppy tolerances in the cupping and heading process.
Steeeeeeeerike one!
Sloppy tolerances...indicator of poor quality control.
Not something I want to see in my ammunition.

Now those dimension variations do affect headspace and possibly firing pin impact.
Seeing as most firing pins drive all the way forward to the breach face, it doesn't
prevent ignition, but it does allow for possible differences in ignition rate.
In a high end rifle that miniscule variation in ignition might make a difference in results on target
and be the deciding factor in a sport where target analysis can end up being made to the thousandths of an inch.
With the majority of rimfire shooters, doesn't sound like something that needs worrying about.
Steeeeeeeerike two.

Does measuring rim thickness change anything else wrong with the cartridges? Nope.
Measuring rim thickness doesn't correct inconsistent primer/powder amounts or chemistry.
Nor does it correct sloppy bullet seating depth or angle. It also doesn't fix dented/dinged/damaged
bullets caused by less than desirable handling on the factory floor and assembly line. It won't indicate
varied crimp tensions or brass volumes that will also cause problems with mv spread.
Steeeeeeeerike three... y'er out of there.


But, measuring rim thickness does accomplish something.
It does allow close inspection of the cartridges while taking the measurements,
observing things like dents, dings, stovepipes, loose bullets, damaged brass
and allow that information provided by Mark I eyeball to be mentally processed
during that extended amount of time it takes to make and record all those measurements.
Whereupon ya' realize..."dang, I'm really not accomplishing much of anything here."

Voice of experience? Hmmmmm, could be.


After attempting rim sorting, weight sorting and length sorting
on three different occasions, a full brick, 500 cartridges each time,
the results did not produce any improvement worthy of the time and effort.
Confirmed by results on target and chronograph numbers.
Yeah, I know, three different times. I'm a bit OCD and easily entertained.

Last edited by jaia; 09-19-2020 at 03:43 PM.
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  #29  
Old 09-20-2020, 12:29 PM
jim2527

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All that measuring came in handy. Set headspace with my fancy home brew head space jig.
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