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  #16  
Old 04-25-2021, 09:16 PM
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HSWayne
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Feed ramp



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Jim Barta was a fellow member of the High Standard Collectors’ Association and a friend. He had a lot of good advice on how to make High Standard pistols run right, and the magazines to feed well. However, on one point he was incorrect, and that was his assertion that High Standard Big Button guns do not have a feed ramp. That just is not true, as Hamden has related. I have photos of ammo feeding into a Series 107 gun which show the bullet noses contacting the top front of the frame in the magazine well, and move up the ramp until they are aimed at the chamber mouth. The front portion of the rear feed lips then control the feeding of the case as the cartridge is turned upwards towards the chamber mouth by the feed ramp. So the magazines do play an important part in feeding ammo into the guns, but the ramp area of the frame is just as important. Fortunately, little needs to be done to the feed ramp area. All I do is a bit of polishing of the feed ramp area. The magazines may need to be adjusted, as Jim Barta described.
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  #17  
Old 04-25-2021, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeMyers View Post
Is there a way to identify who made a magazine? I have two types that came with the Victor, but no idea of who made them. Is there an illustrated article somewhere, so I can match up my mags with the images, and find out what they are?
Mike,

Check the link in post #8 by RodJ. The guide by Wayne Davis describes the various HS magazines - with pictures.

TAB
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  #18  
Old 04-26-2021, 07:25 AM
LDBennett
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The common understanding of a feed ramp is one that almost totally guides the cartridge into to chamber with a larger freedom of adjustment for the magazine lips. That is, the magazine lips are not in control of feeding, the feed ramp is. Since the mag lips of the Hi Std's do virtually all the work of getting the cartridge into the chamber, I believe, as do most others, that the tiny chamfer in the frame of the Hi Std's is not a feed ramp. It may push the nose of the bullet up initially but after that the mag lips do all the cartridge control for feeding, by getting the nose of the bullet into the chamber centered. By that common understanding of feed ramp design, the Hi Std pistols have virtually no feed ramp and are highly dependent on the mag lips.

Is this a design error or simply how the guns evolved from its original pre-war versions? Whatever, these guns are more dependent on mag lips than any gun I have ever encountered in my lifetime. Yes, other guns have some dependence on the mag lips. But none so much as these guns, in my experience. But your experience may vary.

This is my opinion and yours may vary. I stick to my explanation that Hi Std's have virtually no feed ramp in the classic sense of feed ramps.

LDBennett
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  #19  
Old 04-26-2021, 10:26 AM
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That’s not any definition of a feed ramp that I’ve encountered. By that definition, the 1911 does not have a feed ramp. Feeding is controlled by the slide / extractor, magazine lips, mag follower, and very little by the feed ramp. Magazine lips are critical to proper feeding in a 1911. The feed ramp is completely passive and unable to control the feeding. It can interfere with it, but does not control it.

ETA: the bullet profile and seating depth also play as much or more in proper feeding in a 1911 than does the feed ramp.

Last edited by RodJ; 04-26-2021 at 10:30 AM.
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  #20  
Old 04-26-2021, 11:56 AM
SGVictor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDBennett View Post
The common understanding of a feed ramp is one that almost totally guides the cartridge into to chamber with a larger freedom of adjustment for the magazine lips. That is, the magazine lips are not in control of feeding, the feed ramp is. Since the mag lips of the Hi Std's do virtually all the work of getting the cartridge into the chamber, I believe, as do most others, that the tiny chamfer in the frame of the Hi Std's is not a feed ramp. It may push the nose of the bullet up initially but after that the mag lips do all the cartridge control for feeding, by getting the nose of the bullet into the chamber centered. By that common understanding of feed ramp design, the Hi Std pistols have virtually no feed ramp and are highly dependent on the mag lips.

Is this a design error or simply how the guns evolved from its original pre-war versions? Whatever, these guns are more dependent on mag lips than any gun I have ever encountered in my lifetime. Yes, other guns have some dependence on the mag lips. But none so much as these guns, in my experience. But your experience may vary.

This is my opinion and yours may vary. I stick to my explanation that Hi Std's have virtually no feed ramp in the classic sense of feed ramps.

LDBennett

The factory frame drawings clearly define a part of the front top of the magazine well as a feeding ramp a high level of polish. The note in Section A-A with the leader pointing to the top forward part of the magazine well reads "POLISH ( 16 RMS ) FEEDING RAMP. 1/2" LENGTH" This note appears on both slant grip and military grip frames in Section A-A.

It seems a little presumptuous to say there is no feed ramp when the factory documentation clearly references a feed ramp.
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  #21  
Old 04-26-2021, 02:22 PM
shooter86314
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Really? Some of you are quibbling about feed ramps? Who cares?

My HS Victor of mid-80s vintage shoots very well. I have welded the frame at least once by the slide lock, and I use an Aimpoint on an aluminum shrouded, cut-rifled barrel liner. It shoots about 9/16" from Ransom rest at 25 yards.

That said, I have adjusted the feed lips for flawless feeding. With a homemade tool I made from instructions from: John Stimson/s HS Forum, which does not exist now.
Jim Bartha provides a drawing and pic of the tool:
<https://histandard.info/Jim_Barta/magtool.pdf>

Here is a link to a RFC thread by LDBennett which contains instructions from Houston on how to adjust the feed lips:
<https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=552823>

Bend the lips gently, and do not let the tool touch the other side.
For safety, you might should make your adjustments and subsequent feed testing at a range.
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  #22  
Old 04-27-2021, 02:31 AM
hamden
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Don't overlook the front lips as I posted earlier with a picture

Wayne can you post your feeding pictures that you mentioned.
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  #23  
Old 04-27-2021, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamden View Post
My coach adjusted mags for me 50 years ago. They still work great. Coach learned from Joe Benner. Ease the front lips inward to hold the case like in the picture. Make it hold the cartridge very lightly with the follower pressing up. Just a little bump, and it pops out. ...
...

The design/operation of the front lips of the magazine does not use the front lips to retard the upward movement of the cartridge during feeding.
If you need the front lips to drag on the cartridge casing in order for the cartridge to load, something is wrong with the magazine and/or pistol that needs to be corrected.

There are two problems with using this method to load the cartridges.

First, the diameter of cartridge casings are different from different manufactures or even different runs of identical ammunition.
Therefore, this method may work fine with a particular brand of ammunition, but then the gun may fail to load using a different brand/run of ammunition.
Whereas, if the magazine is correct, (the front lips not touching the cartridge casing during loading), you can essentially use any brand/run of ammunition without any loading problems.


Second, the rear lips of the magazine, the front lips of the magazine, and the chamber should be perfectly alined.

If you adjust the front lips of the magazine to drag on the cartridge casing, the front lips will almost certainly be somewhat out of alinement.
This, out of alinement, will cause the cartridge to be canted to the side.
The canting causes the cartridges to bind in the magazine when moving forward.
This canting/binding of the cartridge will result in more force being required to push the cartridge forward.
It doesn't take much canting for a significant increase of force to be required to push the cartridge forward – significantly slowing down the slide speed.

Therefore, the front lips of the magazine should never touch the casing of the cartridge if you want a reliable functional magazine.

….........................
Said another way:

If you need to adjust the front lips to drag on the casing to get the magazine to feed, it means that the cartridges was feeding high without the drag.

Therefore, if you change to ammunition that has a smaller diameter of the casing, the cartridges will feed high again.
And if you use a cartridge with a larger diameter of the casing, you will start feeding low.

Its better to set up the magazine the way it was designed to operate – without the casing touching the front lips.
Then, the front lips will allow the feeding of essentially any ammunition - everything else being equal.
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  #24  
Old 04-27-2021, 07:09 PM
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Moonjohn reminds me of another mod that can assist. Jim Barta’s page on shimming the magazine. This appears to be a “fix” for Texas HS’s but it worked on one of my new TX mags to remove play. But instead of making it permanent I experimented with a small piece of duct tape.

https://histandard.info/Jim_Barta/HS-MAGSHIM.pdf

Worth investigating.
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  #25  
Old 04-27-2021, 11:17 PM
hamden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonjohn View Post
The design/operation of the front lips of the magazine does not use the front lips to retard the upward movement of the cartridge during feeding.
If you need the front lips to drag on the cartridge casing in order for the cartridge to load, something is wrong with the magazine and/or pistol that needs to be corrected.

There are two problems with using this method to load the cartridges.

First, the diameter of cartridge casings are different from different manufactures or even different runs of identical ammunition.
Therefore, this method may work fine with a particular brand of ammunition, but then the gun may fail to load using a different brand/run of ammunition.
Whereas, if the magazine is correct, (the front lips not touching the cartridge casing during loading), you can essentially use any brand/run of ammunition without any loading problems.


Second, the rear lips of the magazine, the front lips of the magazine, and the chamber should be perfectly alined.

If you adjust the front lips of the magazine to drag on the cartridge casing, the front lips will almost certainly be somewhat out of alinement.
This, out of alinement, will cause the cartridge to be canted to the side.
The canting causes the cartridges to bind in the magazine when moving forward.
This canting/binding of the cartridge will result in more force being required to push the cartridge forward.
It doesn't take much canting for a significant increase of force to be required to push the cartridge forward – significantly slowing down the slide speed.

Therefore, the front lips of the magazine should never touch the casing of the cartridge if you want a reliable functional magazine.

….........................
Said another way:

If you need to adjust the front lips to drag on the casing to get the magazine to feed, it means that the cartridges was feeding high without the drag.

Therefore, if you change to ammunition that has a smaller diameter of the casing, the cartridges will feed high again.
And if you use a cartridge with a larger diameter of the casing, you will start feeding low.

Its better to set up the magazine the way it was designed to operate – without the casing touching the front lips.
Then, the front lips will allow the feeding of essentially any ammunition - everything else being equal.

You are wrong about the front lips
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  #26  
Old 04-28-2021, 03:30 PM
mr alexander
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Problems with rounds failing to load into the chamber, Victor

Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter86314 View Post

Really? Some of you are quibbling about feed ramps? Who cares?
For the sake of clarity, can we all agree on two points?

1.) The modern versions of the High Standard Pistols do have a feed ramp at the very top, front of the frame's magazine well.

2.) They do not have a feed ramp which is integral with the barrel as found with other pistol designs, such as in a Model 41.

Finito!
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  #27  
Old 04-28-2021, 11:09 PM
Alan Aronstein

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Magazine Adjustment

After watching and taking instruction from Bob Shea from 1994 to 2013, I arrived at my own magazine plan almost 4 years ago. First, I watched Bob use his little flat tool to adjust magazines. He really NEVER measured the lips or gauged anything. He had the feel !!!! I am pretty good at that type of adjustment BUT not as good as I would like to be. I started making the CT factory tool after Bob said "find this drawing number" that he pointed out on his magazine tool. After Bob died, I was going thru some of his tools. I found this Red Handled Gauge that had a Chrome plated looking 22 body and rim sticking out of each end. One side was the "Go" and the other was the "NoGo". The correct use of the tool allows the rear lips to remain parallel and have the correct radius inside. The gauge proves out that it is correct. The front lips are approx .235" to.240" at the rear. I open the front part to almost a flare. The rim moving up the rear part of the front lips is the main issue as I think indicated by the gauge. I added up 2+2 to come up with my plan. As proven by the success of the current magazines, I know that I have figured this out !!! I should mention that we get many magazine failure issues in our shop that are NOT adjustment issues. Some are: Caked magazines, weak springs, Broken followers, and bent buttons. Some non magazine issues: lost Slide Stop Spring, Weak magazine catch spring, loose pin in early style magazine catch, weak FP spring, Broken FP, loose Ejector, and a DIMPLE worn into the Slide Face. I am sure that I have left something out !!! - Alan Aronstein
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  #28  
Old 05-03-2021, 10:34 PM
MikeMyers

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Short update - as I said earlier, my four magazines I got from Roddy must have opened up, meaning the rounds are aimed at the top of the chamber, not the hole. The information posted here clearly explained what was going on, and why (at least I thought it was clear, to me, anyway).

I went back to check the four magazines I got with my X-Series, and they all hold the round at the correct angle, as I understand it. I spoke to Alan Aronstein, who told me these X-Series magazines will work in my Victor, so my plan is to test this tomorrow.

If so, I'll just sell my older magazines that came from Roddy, to someone who understands better how to adjust them. I'm tempted to buy the factory tool as sold by Alan (NOT the so-so tools available on ebay) and try it myself, just to see if I can do it.

If everything goes well tomorrow, and I'm happy with the Victor, I may re-install the optics rail that Roddy built for it.
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  #29  
Old 05-04-2021, 02:46 AM
hamden
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Mike
Do not dispose of any old mags that have the numbers 5 and 10 on one side for a round count. Most of those mags will have a pastel green follower. Some will have a white follower.
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  #30  
Old 05-04-2021, 07:00 AM
MikeMyers

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I will post a photo of my magazines later today. Of the four magazines I got from Roddy, two of them have those markings.

All of the magazines worked around 2015 when I think I bought the gun from Roddy. Last week, all four must have opened up. I guess I need to buy the tool, join the crowd, and maintain at least those two magazines.

Someone suggested the other magazines will never hold the desired setting - I know they worked for Roddy, and back then, the gun worked fine. Gee, time flies. It doesn't seem that long ago when I bought the gun.....
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