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  #1  
Old 09-18-2008, 07:12 PM
1917-1911M
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Mounting A J Point/Burris to the P22 Slide



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I know TTIWWOP, this thread is worthless without pictures. But they are coming, not pictures but drawings. I don't know how to photoshop, etc.

Anyway, the idea of mounting a small red dot to the slide of the P22 has been discussed for years. lcberlin installed one and it worked fine until the JB Weld let go. The only other problem was access to the extractor pin.

I think I've got both problems solved and a way to really firm up the breech block in the process. Also the mounting base will be removable. The light weight red dots are 1/2 oz, 27 grams as I recall. I don't know what a base weighs but I'm expecting it is similar in weight and 54 grams is going to be pushing it for what a .22 can cycle. Remember, on the P22 the blowback gas is not only cycling the slide but cocking a stiff hammer. I tested the ole "test gun" to 43 grams and it worked. I'm pretty sure we cannot afford the weight of installing a weaver rail to mount the base to mount the sight on. No rail, the base must be fitted to the slide.

The obvious solution is to install a 1" wide base in front of the rear sight and on top of the slide so that a light weight red dot could be mounted. This wouldn't require the bulky Walther system, would keep the sight in proportion with the small handgun and more than compensate for replacing the tactical sights. The problem has always been that the slide is thin.....very thin.....too thin to tap for screws.

But, the top of the slide does have a nice flat area, in fact a couple of nice ridges that could interface with some small grooves on a base mount. This would keep the base perfectly straight when mounted. There is also plenty of room from the front of the rear sight to the ejection port for a small red dot.

So I got to thinking about the very solid breech block that sits tightly right under the slide, right under where we need to bolt the base down. There are several very thick and solid flat areas on the breech block that appear at first glance to sit exactly where they need to be for tapping. So, all we need to do is find the right flat bottom base, carefully file two narrow grooves to fit the outer ridges on top of the slide, carefully drill holes through the slide and into the appropriate area of the breech block. We won't be using the metal in the slide for any threading, only the breech block.

Then we need to find screws of the appropriate length, tap the breech and install the base. Any extra length to the screws can be removed leaving them flush with the bottom of the breech block. The two areas I'm looking at don't even rub on anything. A little blue threadlocker and the sight should sit very solid, be removable and firm up the breech block for better rim seating in the process.

I'll get a drawing up soon. One of the bases I've been looking at for a J Point has four short round posts at each corner to set the red dot on. Then there are two screws to hold the sight on the base and two screws to hold the base to the firearm. These last two even look perfectly placed to fit the P22 where they can be firmly attached to the breech block while avoiding the firing pin.

lcberlin, your base is 1" wide, how long is it and where and what is the spacing for the mounting bolt holes if you don't mind?

More later, Marc Cohn is in town and we have front row seats dead center, 10 feet from the stage. Hoover Library series, a great venue, only 200 seats or so in the whole place with intermission, snacks and all. $220 for about 12 shows from now to next May. I might take my guitar and harmonica in case he needs a little help on "Walking in Memphis". M1911
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  #2  
Old 09-19-2008, 06:52 PM
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This is a section through the slide and breech block at the location of the black dots on the following photos of a P22 breech block. Shown is a section of the slide, section of the area of interest on the breech block, outline of the existing sight, section of a typical J Point or Burris mounting base and a representation of the red dot sight. This drawing was made to scale.



I'm thinking a base should first have two small grooves installed that fit over the existing top ridges of the slide. This will keep the base aligned once tightened. Also show are two bolts/screws that would be located on the mounting base in a manner where they are 0.32" apart center to center. The top of the slide would have a hole drilled slightly larger than the OD of the bolts. The breech block would then be carefully drilled and tapped for the appropriate size screws The base would then be screwed down onto the top of the slide utilizing the strength of the breech block and slide to hold the mounting base firmly in place.

Install with a little blue threadlocker and the sight should be secure but removable. Then install the sight on the base. We have about 50 grams to work with when using regular HV ammo. This is approximately what a base, screws and red dot weigh.



Here is the location for the threaded holes as viewed on the top of the breech block. The left side is thinner than the right but there is room for two bolts if an additional bolt was fitted forward of the one shown.



Shown is the location of the same holes from the underside of the breech block.



Where the threaded holes are on the side of the breech block. This side of the part is thicker than the other side although both would seem sufficient. The ejector rides under the breech on the left side. I would back the mount against the existing sight for additional support. I fail to see where this would interfere with the structural integrity of the slide or interfere with the operation of breech block componets, firing pin, springs, safety, etc. as long as the mount was not overtightened.



Shown is the top of the slide at the proposed red dot mounting site. I would leave the stock sight on and utilize the two outer, small ridges molded into the slide to hold the red dot base straight. But I think I would place the base against the sight for additional support.

What do you boys and girls think? Oh yeah, the Marc Cohn concert was really great. He was available afte the show for talk and autographs, etc. I would have asked him about being shot a few years ago during a robbery. This happened in Denver as I recall. M1911

Last edited by 1917-1911M; 09-19-2008 at 07:00 PM.
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  #3  
Old 09-19-2008, 09:43 PM
lcberlin

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bottom view, both, glock base on left.



bottom view, glock base




top view, glock base



bottom view, picatinny base



top view, picatinny base

the measurements on each base were: L=1.815"....W=1.004"....thickness=.14"

The posts measured 1.627" lengthwise, and .902" width, and the height of the post is .047".

The Fastfire needs to have a base, because the electronics are open on the sight itself, and needs the base to cover them.

I think that the Glock base would work for your idea, M1911.
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:52 PM
1917-1911M
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Attempt to post #3.

From looking at the Burris Red Dot on lcberlin's P22 it seems this is "the" sight for the pistol. Pictured below is a J Point sight base, I don't remember for which pistol. There is not one made specifically for the P22. This one is 1" wide and is light.



Carefully cut two grooves into the bottom so it will fit on the small slide ridges then drill holes 0.32" apart on the base, slide and breech block for the smaller screws. This should allow the base to be mounted directly to the slide and utilize the strength of the breech block to hold the sight in place.

What holes are for what on that base lc and what is the measurement between the mounting holes. Wouldn't happen to be .32" would it. 3/8" would work too. M1911
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Old 09-21-2008, 09:01 AM
lcberlin

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1917-1911M View Post
What holes are for what on that base lc and what is the measurement between the mounting holes. Wouldn't happen to be .32" would it. 3/8" would work too. M1911
On the Glock base, the 3 large holes are for mounting to the slide. The two small holes are for mounting the sight to the base, same for the two holes in the picatinny base. I didn't measure the mounting holes...can do that when I get home tonight.

When I was talking about these sights on RFC before, someone told me that the different bases are not interchangeable between brands, that the studs are just a tad differently spaced.
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Old 09-21-2008, 11:54 AM
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I was under the impression that the Docter and Burris mounts were the same but the J Point was slightly different. I also see some J Point filler bases listed for $15 that only come with the holes drilled for the sight mount so the other holes would need to be drilled which might be the way to go since it is unlikely that any pre drilled holes will match the exact location for the P22. I haven't listed the distance from the front of the breech block to the center of areas to be drilled but will add that. I see that the Burris has glass lenses while the J Point is plastic. The Docter and Burris are both heavier I think at 1 oz, ea. 28 gms plus the mounting base. The Burris is shown with a weaver style base and advertised at 2 oz or 56 gms. This is getting heavy but lc says one still cycles fine. All in all, the lighter the better in all regards as long as the quality is there. Plastic lenses???? be careful with those cleaners and scratches. $ 170 is the best deal I've seen for the Burris.

Also 1/2 oz equals appx. 14 gms and I've clycled the P22 slide with 43 gms glued to the slide with regular hv ammo so I don't see why this won't work. I'm expecting the base to add another 14 gms. There is no comparison in aiming through a red dot and open sight. For CC just give me open sights, but for plinking or target shooting, a red dot. I find lasers tedious and don't like using the laser for target shooting. I have a Crimson Trace on my CC and there is works fine for low light and not being able to get the pistol up for sighting but other than that I like looking through optics of one sort or the other. M1911



The two holes for mounting the base to the slide/breech block need to be 1- 5/32" rearward from the front of the breech block and .32" or 3/8 " apart sided to side and centered on the slide/breech block. This will place the mounting screws on the black dot areas as previously shown. There is room for a little change in this placement.

Last edited by 1917-1911M; 09-22-2008 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 09-25-2008, 08:09 PM
Catbird33

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I really haven't given it much thought, however I'm not ready to give up on mounting the small red dot sight here (see red arrow). Drilling/tapping the slide is definitely something I want to avoid.

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Old 09-25-2008, 08:40 PM
aztarget

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how about this instead make a u bracket that attachs to the light rail underneath. then scope would not move. and no damage to gun to void warranty. then drill and tap top for 10/22 rail. cheap and easy rail to get
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Old 09-25-2008, 08:43 PM
aztarget

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my second idea

get the 5 inch barrel. and instead of using walthers muzzle break. make your own and d&t so you have a cantilever mount.
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Old 09-25-2008, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aztarget View Post
get the 5 inch barrel. and instead of using walthers muzzle break. make your own and d&t so you have a cantilever mount.
Now that's not a bad idea aztarget. A red dot on the stabilizer would work fine regarding eye relief and would not add any weight to the slide. The stabilizer is really solid to begin with and this is the first good reason I've heard for even considering a 5" model. M1911


Last edited by 1917-1911M; 09-25-2008 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 09-25-2008, 11:03 PM
aztarget

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thanks

Glad you liked my idea.
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Old 09-26-2008, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catbird33 View Post
I really haven't given it much thought, however I'm not ready to give up on mounting the small red dot sight here (see red arrow). Drilling/tapping the slide is definitely something I want to avoid.

I've thought about the same thing. The only two ideas that have come to mind is a flat mounting base like previously show with a slot cut out to fit over the rear sight loop. Then insert screws or threaded rod with a tapered sleeve that as you tighten the taper presses down on the mount. The rear flat surface behind the sight will keep the base plate from rearing up. or.............

Some type of flat base with two vertical ears matching the alignment of the threaded hole for the fastening the base using the existing threads. An allen set screw could be tapped into the front of the base to press on the slide so that any slack could be taken out. A little blue threadlocker. Someone needs to do it. I vote for 1DogFish to get with the program and send me stuff. M1911
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Old 09-26-2008, 09:37 AM
Catbird33

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I think I'm going to rummage thru my endless supply of "junk" and see if I can find something fabricated from polymer/plastic that might serve our needs (with a little grinding/shaping/drilling). I think plastic, as opposed to metal, would work just fine for the P22 and would be much easier for me to work with.

I have three (3) of these el cheapo Docter-like red dot sights (see my Crosman 1377 pellet pistol below) that are designed to fit a Weaver base and a bunch of different bases that I'm going to experiment with.



(My guard-cat, Midnight, is my spotter.)

Last edited by Catbird33; 09-26-2008 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:10 PM
sbhg
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could you use a m1911 mount that attaches to the side of the frame
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/sto...%20SCOPEMOUNT?
if you had machinery you could make 1 simular to this, or just 1 sided.
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:05 AM
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Thread necro something. So has anyone made this work yet? I love my P22 w/Tac65 can on it but the can on it makes the sights hard to see. A red dot would solve my problem.
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