Weight sorting Ammo - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-11-2003, 02:43 PM
Irishfly

Join Date: 
Dec 2002
Posts: 
201
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Lightbulb Weight sorting Ammo



Log in to see fewer ads
In the January edition of Precision Shooting there is an article called "Chasing the Minute of Angle in a Ruger 10/22". Most of the article is not very groundbreaking and better info could be gained by browsing this forum. However there is one point mentioned that I had not heard before. The author stated that before his tests, he "weight sorted" each brand of .22 rimfire ammo and only used the rounds that were within 1mg of each other in weight. I will paraphrase from the article-


"All cartridges in one box of each ammunition were weighed on a Mettler Model 160 Analytical Balance accurate to 0.1 mg. Cartridges which could be grouped into lots +/- 1 mg of eachother were selected as weight sorted. Remainder of cartridges were placed in Random selection group. The number of groups fired in each classification varied depending on the closeness with which the cartridges could be weight sorted.

Extreme weight spreadsederal Lightning 3.319-3.364 grams
Pan Metal Corp. 3.347-3.403 grams
Winchester Super-X 3.336-3.387 grams"

".....Although a bit tedious, the weight sorting resulted in about a 20% reduction in the group sizes. Weight mismatched cartridges yielded group sizes averaging 1.85 inches, while weight sorted cartridge lots shot groups averaging 1.46 inches.... ....So even for cartridges as simple as the .22 rimfire, component variation with the given box appears to be significant......" -Precision Shooting Magazine -January 2003

Now I realize that the weight sorted groups were pitted in the test against the oddballs of the box that didn't make the cut and that that could account for such a big reduction in group size: ie-uniform match ammo against cheap un-uniform stuff. When you are talking about group size though, these are the ones that will stick out and make your group larger even if the other nine are tightly packed into the target. Possibly meaning a 10 or 9 instead of an X in your matches. I plan on doing my own experiments on the matter when I get a digital scale. So....any suggestions making the experiment better? and moreover, any thoughts on the article or concept in general? What do you fellas 'tink???

Damian
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-11-2003, 02:52 PM
knitepoet's Avatar
knitepoet
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2002
Location: 
T'town Alabama
Posts: 
2,843
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Send a message via Yahoo to knitepoet
I decided to try it with some of my Rem Target (BAB) ammo, I sorted it yesterday and haven't shot any of it yet.
I'm wondering if someone who's tried it can tell me if I wasted my time or not.
I came here to ask, but you beat me to it
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-11-2003, 03:34 PM
bigdaddytacp

Join Date: 
May 2002
Location: 
jackson,Tenn
Posts: 
1,094
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally posted by knitepoet
I decided to try it with some of my Rem Target (BAB) ammo, I sorted it yesterday and haven't shot any of it yet.
I'm wondering if someone who's tried it can tell me if I wasted my time or not.
I came here to ask, but you beat me to it
Paul
....It will depend on your gun and the accuracy it now has....in my LIMITED experience with rim and weight sorting bulk and lower grade target ammo...the high dollar stuff is so uniform it doesn't benifit from sorting....but the lower grades seem to vary more in rim thickness and weight......on my Clark 10-22 with 42/3 headspace and Bentz chamber the rim sorting of standard ammo didn't make much difference.....but the weight sorting with a electronic scale did make more difference the group average did do better by 10-15% in my gun...where the rim only sorting didn't change consistantly........either way......the weight seems to help in verticle tightening of the group ..I did the weight sorting and then shot groups with the heaviest and lighest and did get a figure 8 double group at 50yds on a good wind day maybe .25 larger than all one weight group.......not a double blind test or big enough sample for serious study but did seem to help in a 54 and 52 to similar degrees......it seems the more accurate the gun/shooter/bench tech..the more difference the weight sorting makes? good luck and good shooting!!!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 01-11-2003, 03:37 PM
knitepoet's Avatar
knitepoet
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2002
Location: 
T'town Alabama
Posts: 
2,843
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Send a message via Yahoo to knitepoet
Thanks BigD!
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-11-2003, 07:45 PM
RWH24

Join Date: 
Nov 2002
Posts: 
31
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Big Daddy:
Jackson, Tn: Home to Casey Jones R/R Museum and Porter Cable tools!
Knoxville, Tn. Home to the "VOL's" Go Big Orange
Since moving to Texas I just have not lost my love for Orange/White and a drive to the Smokies.
Randy
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-11-2003, 08:40 PM
Cornbread2

Join Date: 
Aug 2002
Posts: 
396
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
We are 3 position and dewar shooters and I have been weight sorting ammo for a long time.

It makes a huge difference in some ammo.

Junk like Remington bulk pack is so bad it can't hardly be sorted. You would have 20 different lots in each brick. Of course no one in their right mind would think of using that crap in a serious rifle.

If you take decent cheap ammo that is accurate in your rifle and sort it by weight and rim thickness it will be almost like match ammo.

My position rifle will shoot sorted CCI Blazer as good as the $10 a box Federal.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-11-2003, 09:32 PM
Irishfly

Join Date: 
Dec 2002
Posts: 
201
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
ahaaaa!!

Thats what I was thinking Cornbread. I figure that match ammo is match ammo because it is more consistent in size, weight, powder, primer etc. sooooo....if you sort out the stuff that works well in your gun, effectively making it more consistent (at least by weight), it should work more like match ammo in your gun. What tolerences do you use for your ammo? In other words, how much does it have to be off before it gets kicked to the curb? Also, how many of those CCI's fail per box? (average)


Thanks for the reply,
Damian
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-11-2003, 10:04 PM
Cornbread2

Join Date: 
Aug 2002
Posts: 
396
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
How many CCI's fail?

It is never the same with different lots and bricks.

As far as weight some bricks will have over 400 really good rounds.

What you look for is the average good weight.

Weigh 15 rounds and write down each one. You will notice a vast majority will weigh a certain amount. For example lets say that 12 out of the 15 weighed 56.6 grains. You can say that is the good weight.

Also some bricks will average two good weights. You can sometimes get two lots of ammo out of one brick. Just don't mix them up. You may even find one weight lot will shoot better than another. You may have one 56. 6 lot and one 56.8 lot and notice the 56.6 lot shoots better than the 56.8 lot.

Since your digital scale is accurate to one tenth grain you would keep all rounds that weigh from 56.5 to 56.7 for example and that is more than good enough for one lot.

Be advised that a .22 LR round depending on brand will have from 1 to 1.2 grains of powder in the case if it is correct. A half grain varaition is a lot since you have only one grain of powder to start with.


You will find a few that are almost one grain light. These are the weak rounds that make the different sound and the ones that are out of the group.

You will find a few heavy rounds. Keep these for your semi auto pistols. The extra power makes for a very reliable pistol.

Use the weak rounds for fouling the bore before serious shooting of for plinking with your kids.

As far as rim thickness it is nowhere as important as powder charge but it makes a difference. Some cheap ammo will vary as much as .005
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-12-2003, 06:23 PM
claybuster's Avatar
claybuster
US Army NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jun 2002
Location: 
Texas Hill Country
Posts: 
3,746
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Send a message via Yahoo to claybuster
CORNBREAD............

It sounds to me like you are assuming that any variation in weight is due to more or less than a normal powder charge. That seems like quite a leap considering that you are measuring the total of the brass, priming compound, bullet & lube as well as the powder. But if weighing the loads seems to work for you, who am I to knock it? I've always believed in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-12-2003, 06:30 PM
Cornbread2

Join Date: 
Aug 2002
Posts: 
396
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Ok I thought of this also.

I pulled 20 bullets and weighed them. They were all within a tenth of a grain of each other.

I weighed the powder charges from each round and wrote these down.

I weighed the 20 empty primed cases and they were all within one tenth grain of each other.

The powder charges varied a lot. Some were half charges.

So when you are weighing loaded ammo and one round is lighter than average it is the powder charge that makes it light.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-12-2003, 11:55 PM
Irishfly

Join Date: 
Dec 2002
Posts: 
201
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
10%

Wow, I never dreamt that it would be 10% but I guess explains one flyer per mag. Great posts guys thanks!

Damian
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-13-2003, 12:48 PM
claybuster's Avatar
claybuster
US Army NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jun 2002
Location: 
Texas Hill Country
Posts: 
3,746
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Send a message via Yahoo to claybuster
Cornbread..........

My hat is off to you sir. It sounds like you really put a lot of effort & research into this. And from your data, it appears that , at least with CCI Blazer, the component that varies the most is the powder charge. And since these must be dispensed on some sort of automated equipment, it stands to reason the there is probably more margin for error in the amount of powder & priming compound than there is in the weight of the brass & bullets.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-13-2003, 06:01 PM
Clayshooter
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2002
Location: 
Wisconsin
Posts: 
159
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Claybuster

I wanted to get into this thread for two reasons. The first is to respond to the issue of sorting by weight, the second is to say hi to Claybuster. We have a very active club in my area not only for rimfire silhouette, but also rimfire bench rest. I like the silhouette, but also read and talk to the benchrest boys. I have lived on Benchrest Central in the past and feel comfortable making the statement that weighing cartridges isn't a part of the normal benchrest shooters process. Yes, they have tried this in the past. Shooters have also tried measuring the rim thickness and sorting by this measurement. Powder charges can be off some and that doesn't effect groups as much as people would think. Primmer variation effects group more and so they measure rim thickness. You can still buy one of these rim checkers from Sinclair International I believe.

I can say this: if you are shooting marginal ammo to begin with Dynapoints and such and you think that it helps - it probably does. By that I mean that shooting is as much of a head game as anything after you have the mechanics down. Why can a man, who has just shot 9 out of 10 rams, miss on the tenth ram. He knows how to do, he has demonstrated that he can do it 9 out of 9, why would he miss on the 10th round? My answer is one thing "confidence". I've read a book or two on the mental side of the shooting sports and confidence is a big factor. You know that you are weird when you start to read golf books to help your shooting. Buying better ammo is the real answer that you want. If you want to tinker and it helps your head - go for it. Post this same question on benchrest central and see what kind of response you get there.

Claybuster, I saw your name and just had to jump in. I've been on and off boards for more than a few years. I use to post on this board when it was Gizz's board on mostly 10/22s. I was Clayshooter back then too. One season, I busted over 10,000 rounds of 12 gauge ammo between skeet and sporties. Tell you how long ago that was - they just introduced the Browning 325. These days I shoot a tricked out 390 and my son shoots a 391. I take it that you might shoot a clay target now and then also. Just thought that I would say. Clayshooter
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-13-2003, 11:03 PM
Clayshooter
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2002
Location: 
Wisconsin
Posts: 
159
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
groups

Glad to hear that your 3 groups went well. It looks interesting enough to do further testing. Report back when you have shot at least 5, 5 shot groups under the same conditions for each of the sortings that you do. 10, 5 shot groups would be better, but 5 will give you a good idea. You can't shoot one group in the morning and the other groups in the afternoon. Keep good notes and report back. I think you and I would both like to see the results. Thanks Clay.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-13-2003, 11:13 PM
Kent Owens
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2002
Location: 
Foothills/mountains of N.C.
Posts: 
1,984
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
A friend of mine and I tried the weight sorting of rounds a few years ago just as an experiment with of all things--WILDCATS! I ended up getting about four or five differenet piles of bullets and I don't recall the exact weights of each pile but we were able to get some pretty terrific groups from Wildcats out of a heavy barreled 52-B Winchester target rifle. Some of the groups rivaled Eley Tenex. What prompted the test was my friend was wondering why every now and then he could get an incredible group and then othe rgroups would be so erratic. We decided to spend an afternoon weighing and sorting, and found out it did work. At least with that batch of ammo it did--that was about 5 years ago. I tried this with Eley Tenex and couldn't find enough deviation to even sort it by weight.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:20 PM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x