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  #16  
Old 11-06-2019, 06:47 PM
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Groups in the 2s with a sporter? Sure, on occasion. But I am tickled to get a sporter to shoot groups consistently at 3/8" or a bit less with good ammo, e.g., Center-X, Midas, Eley Match. I expect I could do better with a truly high-end heavy custom bench rest rifle, but I find the feel and aesthetics of a beautiful .22 sporter far more appealing than an incremental 1/8" or so improvement in groups. But that's just me...

Doug
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  #17  
Old 11-06-2019, 10:13 PM
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I'm with you, Doug. I'll take a good looking, good handling, well-balanced sporter that doesn't bust my budget and can average 3/8 to 1/2 inch at 50 yards any day. It will do anything I require and look good doing it.
I too think it's a bit unrealistic to expect a sporter to average 1/4 or even 1/3 inch, and those who claim to have one - well, I'd have to see it to believe it. Not saying there is no such thing, but it would be extremely rare.
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  #18  
Old 11-06-2019, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by kevin1 View Post
What kind of repeatable and consistent accuracy is a realistic expectation for sporter? Is shooting in the mid .2s realistic? I would like to get your perspectives to set a realistic expectation.
Basically, at which point, you consider that you have reached the accuracy limits of a sporter.

A sporter is equal in it's mechanical accuracy potential to any other style of rifle, it is just more difficult to realize that potential. It may be more appropriate to discuss the accuracy limit of rimfire in general.

I have never been able to consistently shoot in the mid 0.2s at 50Y with any of my 22lr rifles

Me either. Enter general rimfire accuracy limits. It seems we can get them to produce 0.2's and better with what may be termed "a fair degree of repeatability", but not consistently. That is to say, it is seemingly impossible to never witness 0.3's and sometimes above, no matter if perfect weather conditions or machine rest systems are used. Rimfire just cannot be expected to do that.

Keep in mind that Iíve never done lot testing and never used a tuner.

I do use a tuner on my CZ/Lilja custom, but have not lot tested. I have shot a wide variety of top tier ammo over the last couple years, but just a brick or two of whatever random lot the supplier had on hand at the time of ordering.


Quote:
Originally Posted by elh0102 View Post
That means the rifle would have to be capable of consistent .28" groups to shoot a perfect score, which is extremely rare... But still, I believe you would find few custom bench rifles that would meet your goal, even from a machine rest indoors.
On that note, I posted the following target on Bill Calfee's forum a few months ago (and no, my rifle will not produce like this consistently, just with a somewhat "fair degree of repeatability ). I do shoot a healthy amount of 0.2's with it, but 0.3's and 0.4's still occur regularly. I found Bill's comments on it to be interesting, and realized perhaps I may have had unrealistic expectations of custom rifles.



Bill: "Lastly:

I don't know the potential of the CZ action......

But, there's a lot of RFBR guns, with custom actions, that wouldn't kick out the number of groups, back to back, any better than your target.

Your friend, BC"


Quote:
Originally Posted by TEDDY BEAR RAT View Post
I Going with a full blown custom barrel, Lilja, Shilen, etc, will only increase your odds of getting more 1/4" groups, not guaranty it,"...for what that might be worth to you.

TBR
Yep, I certainly shoot more 1/4" groups with my custom barreled rifles, but they all still throw out 0.3's ++ more often than I'd like. I'd say though, it is rather infrequent that I get any 0.5's, and even more rare to see any 0.6's or above. Point is... those undesirable larger groups still happen in non-sporter, custom barreled and tuned rifles... good freakin' luck with a naked barrel factory sporter
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  #19  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:12 AM
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As was already mentioned, rimfire ammunition will still be a limiting factor, even if the "perfect" rifle and barrel were to somehow be made.

TBR
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:48 AM
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Just a couple of questions. First, what magnification is your scope? For me I need all of the magnification I can get. Second, have you tried shooting at a target with smaller aiming points? I find I get better groups when I shoot at a 1/4" dot than a 1" spot.
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  #21  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:56 AM
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This is good, honest discussion.

The problem is some people, innocently or not, fire some incredible groups, post only the exceptional ones, and claim their rifle will do it all day. I understand someone thinking, "Well, if my rifle shot a .125" group once, it has the potential to do it each and every time." Whether this is ignorance or wishful thinking, or both, I don't know, but inexperienced shooters, and even experienced ones, see those posts and expect that those consistent .125" groups are just the next Anschutz purchase, or the next custom-rebarrel, away. I believe this is the basis of the "unrealistic expectations" mentioned in this thread. It's kind of our equivalent of the social media exaggeration phenomenon: "Look how great my life is and how much yours sucks." Some might truly believe that, but most know better, methinks.

TBR
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  #22  
Old 11-07-2019, 12:18 PM
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Sage advice by TBR. It's always easy to see posts of only a few outstanding groups with little to reveal a fuller picture of what is more realistic to expect when it comes to sporter accuracy.

Take the Sako P04R rifle referred to in a link posted above, for example. It showed the target results of many different ammos. Only 8 of them produced averages better than .3. While many of the ammos tested are no longer available, some 36 different ammos averaged between .3 and .5, including varieties such as Midas +, Eley Match EPS, and Tenex -- which are often viewed as among the best ammos available. Clearly very much depends on finding the lot of ammo that has the potential to produce a rifle's best results.

When no less a fabled commentator as Calfee notes that a sporter rifle with a custom barrel (albeit with an action unfamiliar to him) is doing well to shoot three consecutive groups in the mid-.2's", it reinforces the limitations that can realistically be experienced by shooters using sporters.
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  #23  
Old 11-07-2019, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEDDY BEAR RAT View Post
This is good, honest discussion.

The problem is some people, innocently or not, fire some incredible groups, post only the exceptional ones, and claim their rifle will do it all day. I understand someone thinking, "Well, if my rifle shot a .125" group once, it has the potential to do it each and every time." Whether this is ignorance or wishful thinking, or both, I don't know, but inexperienced shooters, and even experienced ones, see those posts and expect that those consistent .125" groups are just the next Anschutz purchase, or the next custom-rebarrel, away. I believe this is the basis of the "unrealistic expectations" mentioned in this thread. It's kind of our equivalent of the social media exaggeration phenomenon: "Look how great my life is and how much yours sucks." Some might truly believe that, but most know better, methinks.

TBR
Yup..... I agree.

Probability, statistics, and the old bell curve thing apply here. Ignore them at your own risk. IF we could throw out all the less than stellar groups, we would all have better shooting guns....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penage Guy View Post
Sage advice by TBR. It's always easy to see posts of only a few outstanding groups with little to reveal a fuller picture of what is more realistic to expect when it comes to sporter accuracy.

Take the Sako P04R rifle referred to in a link posted above, for example. It showed the target results of many different ammos. Only 8 of them produced averages better than .3. While many of the ammos tested are no longer available, some 36 different ammos averaged between .3 and .5, including varieties such as Midas +, Eley Match EPS, and Tenex -- which are often viewed as among the best ammos available. Clearly very much depends on finding the lot of ammo that has the potential to produce a rifle's best results.

When no less a fabled commentator as Calfee notes that a sporter rifle with a custom barrel (albeit with an action unfamiliar to him) is doing well to shoot three consecutive groups in the mid-.2's", it reinforces the limitations that can realistically be experienced by shooters using sporters.
You pretty much covered things in your initial post.
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  #24  
Old 11-07-2019, 01:06 PM
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Penage Guy, thatís exactly my conclusion regarding the ammo. I was thinking about it last night and was about to post what you just said.

If you look at the below posts (Iíve added one for an Anschutz 5418 MS R), you see that the sporters can shoots in 0.2s
But itís maybe with 2 or 3 type of ammo out of the almost 70 tested. In addition itís pretty random. For example Tenex will be outshot by the cheap Eley target. So Saeed (the OP who tested the rifles) didnít get lucky with a super accurate Sako, but found a very small sample of random ammo that shoot well with that specific gun

This also confirms what Clem-E was saying in post #2 where he says ďi have quit buying more expensive stuff and instead spend the $ on more midgrade ammoĒ

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...sl/print_topic

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...3/m/2091073902

At this point I think I have reached a conclusion on this topic.
I wonít send my rifle to Lapa center and wonít go full custom. Shooting in the 0.3s is the expectation with a quality sporter and quality ammo. If I want better accuracy I just have to start testing with a bunch of different type of mid grade ammo (SK, Lapua, Eley).
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  #25  
Old 11-07-2019, 04:27 PM
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Sporter accuracy

This has been a most welcome thread from a guy with an Anschutz sporter, shooting good ammo and getting between .2 and .5 inch groups but not really knowing what I should expect. Only really starting trying to get tighter groups over the last 3-6 months so Iím feeling pretty good overall (hallulejah!)
Reading about the army of one ragged hole shooters I really was feeling like there was something wrong with me
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  #26  
Old 11-07-2019, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penage Guy View Post
When no less a fabled commentator as Calfee notes that a sporter rifle with a custom barrel (albeit with an action unfamiliar to him) is doing well to shoot three consecutive groups in the mid-.2's", it reinforces the limitations that can realistically be experienced by shooters using sporters.
*cough cough* Might want to update the prescription for your spectacles, good Sir. The groups on my target are clearly labelled 1 through 10, indicating the order in which they were shot. Group 1, marked "clean bore", was the first 5 rounds fired from a squeaky clean bore. It should not require any further explanation at this point that such a group should be taken as nothing more than what it was, a fouling/warm-up/sighting group.

Groups 2-6 were 0.254", 0.244", 0.191", 0.251" and 0.183". That is 5 consecutive groups ~ 1/4" or better, not three. Coincidentally, 25 shots is also the amount typically required for score on most competitive targets. Unless you are referring to another comment Calfee made, my rifle is not a sporter, either. The barrel is straight profile 0.850" diameter, generally considered a "heavy barrel", not a sporter profile. While not a true "bench gun", it is somewhat hybridized to act as such. It weighs in at 11 lbs 6 ozs. IR 50/50 weight limit for sporter class is 7.5lbs rifle and scope, for reference.
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  #27  
Old 11-07-2019, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin1 View Post
Penage Guy, that’s exactly my conclusion regarding the ammo. I was thinking about it last night and was about to post what you just said.

If you look at the below posts (I’ve added one for an Anschutz 5418 MS R), you see that the sporters can shoots in 0.2s
But it’s maybe with 2 or 3 type of ammo out of the almost 70 tested. In addition it’s pretty random. For example Tenex will be outshot by the cheap Eley target. So Saeed (the OP who tested the rifles) didn’t get lucky with a super accurate Sako, but found a very small sample of random ammo that shoot well with that specific gun

This also confirms what Clem-E was saying in post #2 where he says “i have quit buying more expensive stuff and instead spend the $ on more midgrade ammo”

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...sl/print_topic

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...3/m/2091073902

At this point I think I have reached a conclusion on this topic.
I won’t send my rifle to Lapa center and won’t go full custom. Shooting in the 0.3s is the expectation with a quality sporter and quality ammo. If I want better accuracy I just have to start testing with a bunch of different type of mid grade ammo (SK, Lapua, Eley).
when i started lot testing on the day (taking more of the cheaper stuff), rather than just a brick of a random lot or two, all my really good shooting rifles are able to shoot sub .3 groups much more often. which was encouraging for me since it wasnt just one rifle that responded positively. there will always be the occasional flier, and sometimes i wont have a lot that will group that day; but overall it happens much more often than it used to.

that being said, i dont shoot my most accurate barrels as much as some of the other stuff, as i just dont see a need to put as much wear and tear on them. so i mix it up quite a bit.

my MPR wont do this all the time, but its pretty regular; if i have the load that will shoot that day.





here is a target where i was testing some lots i had....



and i know people dont like to hear it, but the rubber pressure point under the barrel was as responsible for an increase in precision for both my MPR and my 64 match as lot testing was. my 64 match will typically hang out in the low .3s/high .2s with the right lot. with a best of sub 1/4". then there is the MPR which this has been its best 5rd group at 50y.



i would definitely test more ammo before making many more changes. let me know if you want to hit the range sometime, since we arent that far apart. im thinking about going to the ASC match on the 16th with my MPR, since previous engagements are keeping me from shooting NRL this month.

Last edited by Clem-E; 11-07-2019 at 07:35 PM.
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  #28  
Old 11-07-2019, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by R4B1DM4U53 View Post
*cough cough* Might want to update the prescription for your spectacles, good Sir. The groups on my target are clearly labelled 1 through 10, indicating the order in which they were shot. Group 1, marked "clean bore", was the first 5 rounds fired from a squeaky clean bore. It should not require any further explanation at this point that such a group should be taken as nothing more than what it was, a fouling/warm-up/sighting group.

Groups 2-6 were 0.254", 0.244", 0.191", 0.251" and 0.183". That is 5 consecutive groups ~ 1/4" or better, not three. Coincidentally, 25 shots is also the amount typically required for score on most competitive targets. Unless you are referring to another comment Calfee made, my rifle is not a sporter, either. The barrel is straight profile 0.850" diameter, generally considered a "heavy barrel", not a sporter profile. While not a true "bench gun", it is somewhat hybridized to act as such. It weighs in at 11 lbs 6 ozs. IR 50/50 weight limit for sporter class is 7.5lbs rifle and scope, for reference.
I'm sorry my learned friend; I meant no offense. I didn't notice the numbers on the target and was unfamiliar with your shooting pattern. Elsewhere you seem to have implied a different one on other targets. No matter. I'd prefer to have the targets numbered that way too. It's unfortunate that you shot what became foulers on the target as it clouds an otherwise very good performance. In any case, five consecutive sub-.25" groups is quite notable and commendable.

As for referring to your rifle as a sporter, apparently that too is my mistake. A CZ 455 repeater action with a Lilja heavy barrel in a Boyds stock might be taken for a sporter configuration rifle as is an Anschutz 1710 HB (heavy barrel), though it has a factory stock. Perhaps I experienced some confirmation bias as this thread is about sporters and your rifle and target (shot with a tuner on the rifle) was introduced as part of the discussion. Nevertheless, it is understandable why it may be preferable to be seen as a hybridized version of a true bench gun rather than a sporter. A hybridized bench rifle it is.
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  #29  
Old 11-08-2019, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Penage Guy View Post
I'm sorry my learned friend; I meant no offense. I didn't notice the numbers on the target and was unfamiliar with your shooting pattern. Elsewhere you seem to have implied a different one on other targets. No matter. I'd prefer to have the targets numbered that way too. It's unfortunate that you shot what became foulers on the target as it clouds an otherwise very good performance. In any case, five consecutive sub-.25" groups is quite notable and commendable.
No apology necessary, I'm not offended. I was just clarifying the misapprehensions. Perhaps I came across a tad pithy, I will make an effort to keep the discussion friendly. You are forgiven for being uncertain of the shooting pattern, I have been switching things up and any given target of mine may not follow the traditional order of shooting (that being to start at the top left, working to the right for a row and then moving down). I find that with my Caldwell Rock front rest, I like to move it up a target, versus adjusting it down. In an effort to minimize rest movement from bull to bull, that necessitates working up one side of the target, and down the other.

Thank you for your commendation of the shooting performance. I don't see it as unfortunate that I shot foulers on the target. When I am testing new ammo purchases (as was the case with that target), I like to see how it settles into the rifle from a clean bore, and it is easier to observe any patterns if all groups are shot on the same paper. Having now done some ammo sorting experiments, I have a collection of "reject" rounds for fouler use, and can now shoot my foulers off target while retaining a full box of "good" rounds to shoot a complete target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penage Guy View Post
As for referring to your rifle as a sporter, apparently that too is my mistake. A CZ 455 repeater action with a Lilja heavy barrel in a Boyds stock might be taken for a sporter configuration rifle as is an Anschutz 1710 HB (heavy barrel), though it has a factory stock. Perhaps I experienced some confirmation bias as this thread is about sporters and your rifle and target (shot with a tuner on the rifle) was introduced as part of the discussion. Nevertheless, it is understandable why it may be preferable to be seen as a hybridized version of a true bench gun rather than a sporter. A hybridized bench rifle it is.
My rifle was introduced to the discussion as I thought it to be a fitting segue to elh0102's comment that even custom bench rifles would have a difficult time meeting kevin1's goal of consistent 0.2's (with a sporter). As TBR outlined about the generation of unrealistic expectations, I will admit to having fallen victim to the thinking that those with custom rifles must be punching out 0.1's all day, and this is what I must aspire to. Calfee's commentary to my target surprised me at first, a reality check, if you will. I had been feeling very frustrated, like I was struggling to achieve something remotely close to what some custom rifle owners purport to do with ease. It would seem that I'm actually not too far behind what the full custom rifle is capable of, though I would concede an edge there in terms of repeatability to the full customs. I have only achieved the 5 consecutive groups hanging out around 1/4" three times in two years with my rifle, and only one of those occurrences had all 5 groups sub 1/4". I've also tossed a fair amount of targets in the trash at the range, as the results were not even worth measuring .

On the topic of rifle classification, may I muddy the water? I'm sure most here (myself included) think of a rifle called a "sporter" to be something light, with graceful lines and a thin, tapered barrel. Example:



But, as far as competitions go, classification seems to be largely based upon total weight. Some (such as silhouette) may stipulate that a tapered barrel is required and muzzle devices prohibited. What does a BR Sporter look like?





At a cursory glance, the above rifles appear to be unlimited class BR rifles. I know I was thinkng "Calfee, what the heck!? You're talking about sporters but showing me BR rifles!" Look closer. Basically, barrel profile and stock profile are shaved down to meet weight, while retaining the features such as straight-line stock for optimal bench shooting. The barrel profile is most interesting with the large muzzle end. In lieu of being able to use a tuner, the barrel is back-bored to place the crown back where it would be if an external device was attached, versus this integral setup. Well, not exactly. It depends on the size of the muzzle swell as to where the back-bore should end up as this cutaway reveals (Calfee said "more than normal" was necessary, due to the small muzzle head)



When well executed, Calfee says these sporta's are every bit equal in accuracy to their unlimited class brethren. Rhetorically, what is a "sporter" and why can't it exist at the top tier of rimfire accuracy? Classifying rifles based on appearance alone may be a bit of a misnomer, as those BR Sporters certainly don't look like what I'd typically call a "sporter" rifle. My rifle has a CZ 455 repeater action, and I don't consider it a sporter... What is it, exactly? *shrug* Those BR Sporters have Stiller 2500X, Turbo, and what-have-you-not single shot custom actions also used on unlimited class rifles, yet they are classified as sporters. In the end, who cares what the specific classification of a rifle is? So long as it shoots good and you enjoy shooting it
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  #30  
Old 11-08-2019, 07:06 AM
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Group Size

As some of you know, I had shot matches in Germany in several clubs and at the last match I shot in that country, I was bested by several shooters in a club championship.

The course of fire was five rounds, standing, rifle rested on a height adjustable cross-bar and steel sights. For each shot a new numbered target was used that was later electronically scored. In the center of the ten ring is a tiny dot and while many shooters had 50/50 only two had all shots tearing the dot. The winner was 80 years old and used an Anschutz 54 Match, no shooting jacket or boots.

I guess .11 inches are possible with .22 l.r. after all, when even an 80 year old man with match sights and an Answchutz 54 Match off-the-rack gun can do it.
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