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  #31  
Old 02-06-2020, 03:08 PM
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Fwiw, my thoughts on the use of these bullets by any of us was to be cautious if we value the barrel we have.
100+ years ago common barrel steel was softer, black powder days and all, and the 22RF started there. After smokeless powder and jacketed bullets became available the old steel barrels couldnt take it and there was a switch to the then fancy 'nickel steel'. This was not a problem with cast bullets and smokeless, which is what 22s became. Ive never read anything about a change to nickel steel for common manufacturing of 22 RF barrels. Quite the contrary. Win. has been a high grade metallurgy manufacturer yet when the Win. 22RF barrels were used for, say, 22 Hornet conversions to shoot jacketed the rifling suffered; I know, I had one.
I doubt that lesser manufacturers used better barrel steel than Win., but cant document it.
Sure, some would build up a custom gun to try these projectiles but some of the rest of us would maybe like to try the concept before investing in the build. I would not assume my gun(s) were suitable.
ymmv
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  #32  
Old 02-06-2020, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penage Guy View Post
Anschutz and other manufacturers of match rimfire rifles use chrome molybdenum (chrome moly) steel or stainless steel for barrels, and pricing differences are not significant, with only a $100 CAD difference on an Anschutz 54.30 chrome moly and a stainless steel.
That's great Penage Guy and I should have no reason to doubt that?

Does Anschutz document CrMo 4140 Steel for use in their 1400 - 1700 Series 22 Rimfire Sporter barrels/rifles if by "Match rimfire rifles" you are also including the mentioned Sporters?

I'd very much like to see substantial Anschutz documented evidence of this?

For instance going back to the "Anschutz FAQ's" and the question "Is HV bad for my rifle?

Anschutz never mentions that they use the same Steel (Centerfire/Rimfire) in that question? All they say is we use a quality Steel.

Yes, their FAQ answers may not be as fully answered as one would like them to be? But if you (please). Could you supply documentation of Anschutz using 4140 CrMo Steel in their Sporter 22 rimfire rifles?
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  #33  
Old 02-06-2020, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by NIB View Post
That's great Penage Guy and I should have no reason to doubt that?

Does Anschutz document CrMo 4140 Steel for use in their 1400 - 1700 Series 22 Rimfire Sporter barrels/rifles if by "Match rimfire rifles" you are also including the mentioned Sporters?

I'd very much like to see substantial Anschutz documented evidence of this?

For instance going back to the "Anschutz FAQ's" and the question "Is HV bad for my rifle?

Anschutz never mentions that they use the same Steel (Centerfire/Rimfire) in that question? All they say is we use a quality Steel.

Yes, their FAQ answers may not be as fully answered as one would like them to be? But if you (please). Could you supply documentation of Anschutz using 4140 CrMo Steel in their Sporter 22 rimfire rifles?
I'd like to know more about how Anschutz makes its barrels, what goes into the steel, and a lot of other information too, as would a lot of Anschutz shooters. But as you are no doubt aware, Anschutz doesn't publish that information. Neither do other match rimfire rifle makers. Is there a rifle maker, whether rimfire or centerfire, that does?

The exact composition of the steel that goes into any barrel may well be a proprietary secret, even if many rifle makers use exactly the same steel. But there is nothing on the websites of custom barrel makers to indicate that they use any material other than the same steel for both their rimfire and centerfire barrels. Perhaps that should tell us something.

In any case, in the absence of confirmation about what steel any particular rifle maker uses in its barrels, it may not be prudent to draw any firm conclusions about that. But to disregard that advice for a moment, we do know that Anschutz, for example, makes some models (currently the 54.30 for example) available in stainless steel, with only a small difference in price ($100 on a $3200 barreled action). Unless there different grades of rifle barrel stainless steel other than the commonly seen 416 alloy stainless steel it would follow that it's the same steel used by Anschutz for its SS barrels.

By inductive reasoning, if Anschutz SS barrels were of a "better grade" of steel than their chrome moly counterparts, then shooters would be advised to choose Anschutz rifles with SS barrels whenever possible, especially considering the small difference in price. In short, why would Anschutz make a chrome moly barrel that was by its composition somehow inferior to its SS barrels? That wouldn't seem to make sense.

Are there different grades of stainless steel for barrels? I don't know. Lilja, Benchmark, and Bartlein, for example, all offer their barrels in 416 SS.

If pricing is anything to go by, a custom Lilja SS barrel for an Anschutz 2013 (the one with the user changeable barrel) is $420 USD. By comparison an Anschutz made CM barrel for the same rifle is $436 (converted to USD). If Anschutz was trying to cut costs with a "cheaper," less expensive barrel, it ought to reconsider.

In the end, without verifiable documentation, perhaps no one will know exactly what kind of steel is used in rimfire barrels in general or in match barrels in particular. If I was making a .22LR match barrel for a rifle like Anschutz or a custom BR rig I would want to use the best material available which doesn't price me out of business. I think many shooters would be surprised to learn that Anschutz was cutting corners and costs by using a lesser grade of steel for their rifles.
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  #34  
Old 02-06-2020, 04:59 PM
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Question

While I don't doubt some manufacturers who make and sell a lot of barrels on the aftermarket may use the same CrMo 4140 steel blanks for both CF & rf barrels to simplify their inventory, I likewise don't doubt that other manufacturers see no need to $pend extra $ unnece$$arily on higher grade steel when simple 1040 carbon steel will do that job, as it has done for over a century. Finally, regardless of whether or not someone used 4140 to make their barrels, it has no bearing on whether or not they heat-treated it to sustain CF pressures & wear after machining was done, as would be needed to modify its wear properties [4140 is typically machined in the "half-hard" state; it's supposedly a real PITA to work when fully annealed.]

Back to the topic at hand, ELR bobos from SHOT 2020...
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  #35  
Old 02-06-2020, 06:38 PM
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While I don't doubt some manufacturers who make and sell a lot of barrels on the aftermarket may use the same CrMo 4140 steel blanks for both CF & rf barrels to simplify their inventory, I likewise don't doubt that other manufacturers see no need to $pend extra $ unnece$$arily on higher grade steel when simple 1040 carbon steel will do that job, as it has done for over a century.
Chrome Molybdenum 4140 steel was developed nearly 100 years ago. What current rifle makers, if any, use 1040 carbon steel for barrels, excluding airguns?
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  #36  
Old 02-06-2020, 07:52 PM
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barrel steel hardness

Does no one of our posters have a Rockwell hardness tester? That would quickly answer the question about the hardness of RF vs CF steels.
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  #37  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:03 PM
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I wish the Cutting Edge people well, but I think it is very possible their .22 ammo never makes it to the marketplace. That is in no way criticism of their work. If it becomes available commercially, the early adopters will jump on it. I have no expectations but I can't help but be interested in something new. I am not an early adopter.
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  #38  
Old 02-07-2020, 07:48 AM
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there would need to be a significant pressure difference for a jacked round to work well, that rebated tail section of a .22lr round really messes things up. jacked rounds for rf have been done before multiple times with no significant advantage.
Br rules prohibit fooling with the bullet, including lubricant.
Over the millenniums there have various rimfire rounds of various calibers. Other than what is available now they fell by the wayside - primer functions and reloadabilty in the field being the culprits. Re-priming a rimfire case - even the larger calibers is a pia.
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  #39  
Old 02-07-2020, 05:28 PM
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This will never work on so many levels. 1} spire point bullets need to go faster than the speed of sound all the way to the target. When they get close they tend to tumble.
2} BC is fine but Section Density is just as important this is why all long range center fire shooters use heavy for calibre bullets.
3} You will need much tighter rifling that will increase pressures even at Stinger velocities.
4} Machining a copper slug does not make it more concentric than a good jacket press and the tolerances needed to do so would mean every bullet would need to be hand inspected and miced.
5} Copper does not compress like lead, good luck engraving a solid copper slug with RF pressures.
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  #40  
Old 02-07-2020, 09:17 PM
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This will never work on so many levels. 1} spire point bullets need to go faster than the speed of sound all the way to the target. When they get close they tend to tumble.
2} BC is fine but Section Density is just as important this is why all long range center fire shooters use heavy for calibre bullets.
3} You will need much tighter rifling that will increase pressures even at Stinger velocities.
4} Machining a copper slug does not make it more concentric than a good jacket press and the tolerances needed to do so would mean every bullet would need to be hand inspected and miced.
5} Copper does not compress like lead, good luck engraving a solid copper slug with RF pressures.
Very good points.
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  #41  
Old 02-08-2020, 06:47 AM
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If anyone understands German there may be an answer (albeit a bit dated) to the metal used for Anschutz barrels in this film of the Anschutz factory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2jjl0fjB6E
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  #42  
Old 02-08-2020, 11:56 PM
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That's a great "Wood and Steel" video done for Anschutz's 100th anniversary 1856/1956. There are those on the forum that would likely be capable of German/English translation of the video.

Anschutz Centerfire rifle metal also being used for Rimfire is not certain.

What is certain? Their 22 barrels are not made from Rebar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cPjYD59VOA
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  #43  
Old 02-09-2020, 11:55 AM
Penage Guy

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I don't know much at all about barrel steel grades. But, for what it's worth, in hammer forged barrels the following are common barrel materials:

32 Cr Mo V 1210
21 Cr Mo V 511
14 Ni Cr 14
50 Cr V 4

The first two are obviously some kind of chrome moly, the third a nickel chromium alloy, and the fourth a chromium vanadium alloy.

These are said to be the grades used by CZ. See post #3 https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...d.php?t=527925

It appears this information is taken from Werner Augustin "Cold Forging of Rifle Barrels with and without cartridge chamber". This source does not mention CZ rifles barrels.
https://billstclair.com/weaponsman.c...orgingBook.pdf

If anyone can make further sense of this, an elaboration would be welcome.
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  #44  
Old 02-09-2020, 12:47 PM
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That is similar to some reading I had done, and having seen a different European formula for Hammer Forged European Firearms.

In my Colt Sauer's manual it states that the German made Hammer Forged Centerfire rifle is made from Ordnance Steel, 4140 CrMo is also known as "Ordnance Steel". 4150 is also considered Ordnance Steel but I doubt they used the .1% higher carbon content as it eats tooling at a much higher rate.

I'm certain Anschutz uses a good grade of steel for their "Button Rifled" 22's, which are not Hammer Forged.
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  #45  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:00 PM
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The absence of information that shows that Anschutz barrels in particular, or quality rimfire barrels in general, are made from steel other than something very similar to the 4140 chrome moly of centerfire barrels doesn't prove anything. But it is curious that there's no information that seems to simply say that rimfire barrels are made of different steel than centerfire barrels.
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