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  #16  
Old 02-04-2020, 03:51 PM
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Kinda surprised that cci didn't attempt a higher BC shape with the copper line of ammo.

Momometal solids will be the only way to do this with a healed bullet. But it could be interesting. Will likely need a different chamber, mags should be easy to adjust for the vudoo.

Have used cutting edge bullets in my 375, expect. This to be in the range of custom centerfire ammo in price. Their bullets start at 1$ a pop.
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  #17  
Old 02-04-2020, 04:37 PM
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Full Metal Jacket 22 LR's

These full metal jacket's weren't Monometal. Is it really necessary? Not so sure of the bullets balance or lack of in a heeled, pointed bullet? The cost/feasibility of production?


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  #18  
Old 02-04-2020, 07:47 PM
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I thought I would add some additional perspective regarding rimfire rounds using a FMJ or Ballistic Tip bullets.

During the Western Wildcat 6400 prone match (Shot at Ben Avery Range - North of Phoenix off I-15) about 9 or 10 years ago a former US Olympic shooter (84, 88, 96, 2000) used an Anschutz 1913 which had been re-barreled with a .17 barrel. I cannot remember which .17 rimfire caliber he was shooting, however he shot the entire course of fire with it. The daily course of fire at the Wildcat is:

Match one - Dewar match - 20 shots at 50 yards and 20 shots at 100 yards
Match two - Forty shot at 100 yards
Match three - Forty shots at 50 meters
Match four - Forty shots at 50 yards

Day one and three are iron sights
Day two and four are any sights (iron or scope)

As I recall he did this test for an article which was to be published (I don't know if it was ever published in a magazine or web site) regarding the accuracy of the particular .17 cartridge he was using.

The ammunition used by the former Olympian wasn't produced with the same quality controls as Match Grade .22 and it showed down range. In theory the jacketed bullet may do many things well, however without being loaded as a match cartridge it may show as many or more variables as can currently be found with non match grade .22 ammunition.

While Cutting Edge will be producing the bullets they don't speak to the some of the greatest variables that can be found with a .22 match cartridge. They include:

- Powder quality - Is the manufacturer going to use something similar to Eley, Lapua and RWS or are they going to use bulk ammunition powder?
- Consistency of the bullet crimp - This is critical to the accuracy achieved by Eley, Lapua and RWS
- Primer consistency and quality - Eley prime or bulk ammunition prime?
- Case to case consistency - Eley measure each and every case on their Tenex line along with tumbling the cases
- Headspace consistency?

All of these requirements cost a significant amount of time and money there is a reason why Remington, Winchester, Federal and CCI don't make match grade ammunition anymore. That is that they cannot realize a significant return on their investment given the size of the market in the US.

I have been shooting outdoor prone match for over 35 years while the .22 is many things it isn't a long range cartridge. Match grade ammunition will produce reasonable results in moderate conditions at 200 yards, however beyond that distance the bullets lack of BC and velocity significantly limits its performance.

As someone mentioned earlier, if it really worked then it would have been done years ago and I agree with that sentiment. If someone wants to try and hit targets beyond 200 yards then more power to them, however I don't see there being a sustainable market for this ammunition.
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  #19  
Old 02-04-2020, 09:46 PM
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M52E1 makes very good points. For the Cutting Edge bullet to be successful for very long range accuracy it seems Cutting Edge would have to partner with an existing match ammo maker who can make match quality ammo. Cutting Edge would supply the bullet, while the partner would load the bullet in it's prepared, powdered, and primed casings -- all to the high level of quality and consistency that goes into making the best match ammo. That seems to be an unlikely marriage.

Is a new bullet design such as that proposed by Cutting Edge so effective and yet so revolutionary that over many decades it would have escaped the attention of any of the big three ammo makers? There's good reason to be skeptical. If a new bullet design made all the difference in long range shooting accuracy for .22LR, what would prevent the match ammo makers from going ahead without Cutting Edge?
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  #20  
Old 02-05-2020, 08:25 AM
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If a new bullet design made all the difference in long range shooting accuracy for .22LR, what would prevent the match ammo makers from going ahead without Cutting Edge?
A patent pending might prevent it perhaps?, or, present rf barrels in use today are made from a softer steel?
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  #21  
Old 02-05-2020, 08:32 AM
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I cant prove it, I am no metallurgist, but Ive 'heard' for decades about the 'softer steel 22LR barrels. Myth? Certainly fine for soft lead at pedestrian velo's.
Seems I recall mention of some custom barrel makers using the same 'higher grade' steel as they use for their CF barrels.
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  #22  
Old 02-05-2020, 09:49 AM
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A patent pending might prevent it perhaps?, or, present rf barrels in use today are made from a softer steel?
I don't know about rimfire barrels being made of softer steel, but it doesn't make sense that with all the decades of research and development that the match ammo makers never thought to try a design that improves accuracy at long range. If Cutting Edge, a relative newcomer in the bullet industry, beginning in 2009, found that this new design is a real game changer, then there would be a lot of red faces at places like Eley, Lapua, and RWS. Heads would roll if there was a magic bullet that everyone wrongfully dodged.
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  #23  
Old 02-05-2020, 11:03 AM
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Heh heh heh.... excellent discussions going on. Just what I hoped when I posted the story.
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  #24  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:43 PM
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I don't think it's revolutionary outside of shape. This thing clearly is outside normal 22 or overall length. Mono metal with high bc allows it to be machined with the heel needed for lr. All other options are within sammi spec. This clearly is not.
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  #25  
Old 02-06-2020, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by gcrank1 View Post
I cant prove it, I am no metallurgist, but I've 'heard' for decades about the 'softer steel 22LR barrels. Myth? Certainly fine for soft lead at pedestrian velo's.
Seems I recall mention of some custom barrel makers using the same 'higher grade' steel as they use for their CF barrels.
I'm right along with you. I have had that thought, that at least some 22 rimfires were not the same metal as Centerfires? Reality or not? I contacted Anschutz asking what steel used? You might as well try contacting "area 51" and acquire the molecular recipe for alien material!

Here's "one" 22 Rimfire "Bergara's B14" that uses 4140 Steel same as Centerfire. "One"...not saying all use it? Virtually all 22 Rimfire manufactures fail to mention anything about the type of steel used?

https://www.bergara.online/en/blog/n...-2020-catalog/

https://sciencing.com/facts-7621048-...150-steel.html
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  #26  
Old 02-06-2020, 08:33 AM
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Heh heh heh.... excellent discussions going on. Just what I hoped when I posted the story.
And I thought Jala an instigator.
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Originally Posted by NIB View Post
I contacted Anschutz asking what steel used? You might as well try contacting "area 51" and acquire the molecular recipe for alien material!
It would make sense some of the makers of really cheap rf's use softer steel for ease of barrel making no?
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  #27  
Old 02-06-2020, 09:09 AM
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It would make sense some of the makers of really cheap rf's use softer steel for ease of barrel making no?
Without a doubt Al!

Heck...."Cheap RF's"....even Anschutz may very well use a lower/lesser strength than Chromium Molybdenum 4140 Steel for their rimfires!

Unless "A" Manufacture specifies "exactly" what they are using we'll never know for sure without metallurgical testing that we'll ever spend the money needed to find out!
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  #28  
Old 02-06-2020, 10:06 AM
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If this round is the Holy Grail for long range then it should be killer ammo for the 50 yd. benchrest disciplines, should it not? Just thinking.
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  #29  
Old 02-06-2020, 01:15 PM
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Maybe it will be just the thing for those with 'more dollars than sense'

That is doubtful .

Seems like a good time for a quote from that worthy philosopher, Forrest Gump.
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  #30  
Old 02-06-2020, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al the Infidel View Post
It would make sense some of the makers of really cheap rf's use softer steel for ease of barrel making no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NIB View Post
Heck...."Cheap RF's"....even Anschutz may very well use a lower/lesser strength than Chromium Molybdenum 4140 Steel for their rimfires!

Unless "A" Manufacture specifies "exactly" what they are using we'll never know for sure without metallurgical testing that we'll ever spend the money needed to find out!
Custom barrel makers offer the same materials for their rimfire and centerfire barrels. When they get their barrel blanks, they do not know if it's destined for a .22 rimfire or a centerfire barrel. They make both barrels from the same blanks.

Anschutz and other manufacturers of match rimfire rifles use chrome molybdenum (chrome moly) steel or stainless steel for barrels, and pricing differences are not significant, with only a $100 CAD difference on an Anschutz 54.30 chrome moly and a stainless steel.

Anschutz also makes centerfire rifles and barrels.

It is unknown to me whether inexpensive rimfire rifles use a less expensive grade of chrome moly steel barrels -- if there is one worth using -- or how that would translate to cost efficiencies, barrel life, and accuracy. Factors such as these would also translate to centerfire barrels if there were a range of grades of steel from which to choose. In any case few rimfire barrels ever get "shot out" from too many rounds, whereas it happens with some regularity for centerfire barrels.

Rather than repeating assumptions about rimfire barrel softness, however, is there any evidence that quality rifle manufacturers such as Anschutz or Walther or FWB use softer steel in their barrels than custom barrel makers?
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