Next step in 22 2lr evolution? - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-22-2018, 01:05 AM
comfisherman's Avatar
comfisherman
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Nov 2004
Location: 
Kodiak AK
Posts: 
1,251
TPC Rating: 
100% (6)
Send a message via AIM to comfisherman
Next step in 22 2lr evolution?



Log in to see fewer ads
So what's the next step in 22 long rifle evolution?

The last 10 years seems like there's been some progress;

CCI copper comes to mind, with this technology we could get a little more exotic bullet shape then we could with a healed lead bullet. Seems like one could use a stinger case and a little more streamlined shape even potentially a polymer tip bullet.

Browning had conceptually a good idea which was Teflon coat and push the newer powders that are used in the a17 and a 22 ammo. The specs were impressive, albeit batch I tried was the worst stuff I've shot in a decade. Maybe some refinement on the idea.

With Market saturation maybe there's incentive for a new ideas, granted the same Market forces favor budget ideas not premium ones.



What say you? What's next, bullet design, coatings, powder? Maybe new more consistent mfg techniques?

Last edited by comfisherman; 02-24-2018 at 02:50 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-22-2018, 05:34 AM
tim slater is online now

Join Date: 
Apr 2005
Posts: 
3,872
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I'm not sure these is a next step. Many of the flaws inherent in the. 22 rimfire were addressed with centre fire cartridges later in the 19th C.

If you try to accommodate the bullet inside the case, it has to be smaller, too small for the bore of existing barrels. The. 22WMR cartridge has a larger case to get around this.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-22-2018, 08:57 AM
Neos

Join Date: 
Apr 2012
Posts: 
104
TPC Rating: 
100% (3)
V-max bullets would be cool. Not for expansion but for better ballistic coefficient and maybe better accuracy.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 02-22-2018, 09:59 AM
minuteshaver

Join Date: 
May 2017
Posts: 
425
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
the amount of various rimfire guns on the market makes so called advancements a moot point.

whats the point of developing and marketing a stream lined boat tail varmint tip bullet for a 22lr, if it wont be able to feed in 95% of all guns on the market?

the target ammo from Italy sometimes comes with a crimped bullet that rotates, we can work on things like that for actual improvement. But in the long run, its not going to actually happen. We think Tenex is "pricey", the new ideas in the original post is most likely going to end up being twice as pricey..
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-22-2018, 10:17 AM
Vigo
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Mar 2010
Location: 
Virginia
Posts: 
134
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Most likely: growth in powder coated and lead-free bullet offerings because of potential local or state restrictions on the use of lead or non-coated lead projectiles.

Most needed: improved efficiency/technology and lowering costs of production in manufacturing traditional, moderate quality .22lr ammunition. Improvements in the manufacturing process can act as a check against rising prices due to demand or other circumstances. We've gradually become conditioned to accept rising prices for decent-quality .22lr ammunition. I'd love to see fully modern, computer-aided technology drive down .22lr production costs while improving consistency. I'd love to see more offerings like CCI Standard Velocity or Aguila Standard Velocity at the $20 per 500 brick price point eventually.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-22-2018, 10:23 AM
noremf's Avatar
noremf
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2011
Location: 
Alabama
Posts: 
9,834
TPC Rating: 
100% (2)
Next Step?

I don't know what the next step might be but bullet design and/or composition for non-magnum .22 rimfire rounds are only one aspect and many folks don't think that they are the defining one.

Research for .22 non magnum rimfire bullets has been going on for 50 years or better.

Regardless of what was tried such as different alloys, solids, jacketed which would be enormously expensive and even ceramic bullets, none would not meet the total requirements of a .22 non magnum rimfire user.

Consequently they fell by the wayside. If you can't sell em it does not matter what the bullet is.

Advances in priming compounds and inserting them in the rim have been successful as well as better powders.

Some experiments in "solid powders" such as powder pellets which are out there for black powder show promise but looooooong way to go before they can be consistent enough from a burning standpoint and they cost a bunch more then "free-standing" gun powder.

Some folks feel that research in the "bullet" area is non-productive and advances to things like rail guns, laser guided bullets, and even plasma driven bullets are better to put research monies into.

Kinda like Aspirin. No matter what folks come up with Aspirin still is considered an essential medicine.

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 02-22-2018 at 10:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-22-2018, 10:27 AM
arjay's Avatar
arjay

Join Date: 
Apr 2005
Location: 
Colorado
Posts: 
1,313
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
no lead bullets would be my guess.Flyover country invariably follows what's happening on the coasts
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-22-2018, 10:30 AM
comfisherman's Avatar
comfisherman
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Nov 2004
Location: 
Kodiak AK
Posts: 
1,251
TPC Rating: 
100% (6)
Send a message via AIM to comfisherman
I get the price point issue, the CCI copper locally cost more than 17 Mach 2 and is consistently about the same price as 17 HMR.

But look at the a17 ammo, it added it almost a hundred feet a second, just with the powder change. To my knowledge it hasn't been added to the 22 long rifle yet, seems like an incremental change that still an evolutionary step.

The CCI segmented stuff is another good example of evolution, it works a lot better than the old CCI quick shock. Now none of these best a 17 Mach 2, out of a group of my shooting Buddies who do a lot of Trigger Time I'm the only one with a Mach 2.

Honestly something as simple as brass manufacturing really can change a lot. Have recently used some of the Peterson cartridge brass, it's Lapua impressive with Winchester price. A trickle-down effect to rimfire could be just as impressive.

We went from no ammo, to a surplus in about 8 months. It created the paradox, or however many million 22 long rifles have plenty of cheap ammo available, and yet if you can find something a little bit better it's a way to differentiate oneself. It's a good day to be a Rimfire shooter...

Last edited by comfisherman; 02-22-2018 at 10:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-22-2018, 11:23 AM
jnyork's Avatar
jnyork
US Air Force Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2004
Location: 
Wyoming and Arizona
Posts: 
7,718
TPC Rating: 
100% (20)
I wonder if there will be any further progress in the .22 ammo that most shooters purchase, that is, the cheapest possible thing that will go "bang" most of the time and at least frighten the pop can. Probably 95% or better of the ammo sold in this country fits that description. If the manufacturers are selling all they can make running 24/7, where's the incentive to do better?

Good ammo will continue to be manufactured overseas, while we will continue to turn out thunderturds by the millions.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-22-2018, 02:42 PM
elohssa63's Avatar
elohssa63
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Mar 2012
Location: 
Golden Gulf Coast
Posts: 
1,899
TPC Rating: 
75% (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnyork View Post
I wonder if there will be any further progress in the .22 ammo that most shooters purchase, that is, the cheapest possible thing that will go "bang" most of the time and at least frighten the pop can. Probably 95% or better of the ammo sold in this country fits that description. If the manufacturers are selling all they can make running 24/7, where's the incentive to do better?

Good ammo will continue to be manufactured overseas, while we will continue to turn out thunderturds by the millions.
I`ll have to agree with you on this one. Two days ago I was at the range doing some lot testing on the 50 yd. range. Three people drove up and got out of the car. Two of them sat down while #3 loaded up a few magazines that fit a .22lr rifle that looked like an AR. I kept looking their way expecting one to ask for a cold range so they could set up a target. Never happened. #3 started firing and went through about 100 rounds in short order, got back in the car and left. I never could determine what he was shooting at.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-22-2018, 06:25 PM
Neos

Join Date: 
Apr 2012
Posts: 
104
TPC Rating: 
100% (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by minuteshaver View Post
the amount of various rimfire guns on the market makes so called advancements a moot point.

whats the point of developing and marketing a stream lined boat tail varmint tip bullet for a 22lr, if it wont be able to feed in 95% of all guns on the market?

the target ammo from Italy sometimes comes with a crimped bullet that rotates, we can work on things like that for actual improvement. But in the long run, its not going to actually happen. We think Tenex is "pricey", the new ideas in the original post is most likely going to end up being twice as pricey..
You don't think that a more streamlined bullet for long range shooting would be worthwhile? Some of the biggest advances for long range shooting in the last 20 years have been progressive powder charges and more streamlined bullets. Why not for the 22lr? I bet you the long range crowd would appreciate them. Also, why wouldn't they feed well? My biggest feeding problem is with the fat tip catching on the feed ramp or the bottom of the chamber. I bet a pointy tip would feed better.

But for conversation sake, let's assume that they won't feed in 95 percent of guns. To that I say who cares. I'm sure I'll be able to single feed them in all of my single shot and bolt action rifles. Something that lots of us do anyway.

With long range shooting as popular as it is, I don't think a tipped v-max type bullet is out of the question. I believe people would buy them, even at a premium. Eley is expensive and they can't keep up with the lot chasers.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-22-2018, 09:55 PM
comfisherman's Avatar
comfisherman
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Nov 2004
Location: 
Kodiak AK
Posts: 
1,251
TPC Rating: 
100% (6)
Send a message via AIM to comfisherman
Prs is definitely the up and coming genre in the shooting world. Seems like some are pushing the limit on the 22lr, a monometal like the cci copper in the shape of even a hornet 35 v max would really help.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-23-2018, 12:26 AM
minuteshaver

Join Date: 
May 2017
Posts: 
425
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neos View Post
You don't think that a more streamlined bullet for long range shooting would be worthwhile? Some of the biggest advances for long range shooting in the last 20 years have been progressive powder charges and more streamlined bullets. Why not for the 22lr? I bet you the long range crowd would appreciate them. Also, why wouldn't they feed well? My biggest feeding problem is with the fat tip catching on the feed ramp or the bottom of the chamber. I bet a pointy tip would feed better.

But for conversation sake, let's assume that they won't feed in 95 percent of guns. To that I say who cares. I'm sure I'll be able to single feed them in all of my single shot and bolt action rifles. Something that lots of us do anyway.

With long range shooting as popular as it is, I don't think a tipped v-max type bullet is out of the question. I believe people would buy them, even at a premium. Eley is expensive and they can't keep up with the lot chasers.
here is what I would like you to do, take 1 magazine loaded with your favorite fat tip and run them through the action 10 times. ie load the mag, run it thorugh, then repeat. Do the test again with your pointiest pointed bullet.

Look at the bullet noses and driving band. youll see a good amount of damage to them. Even after the first time youll see a lot of damage. DO that with a 10/22 and youll see considerable damage.

The gun companies and the ammo companies consider rim fire to be nothing more then short range, 50 yard max, plinking and squirrel shooting off the bird feeder proposition.
Its only the last 20 years that people have taken the 22lr and tried to do the same things that they do with a .22 hornet. Its CUTE that people are bored and rich enough to get a scope and rifle and fancy ammunition and try to hit a Kleenex box at 300 yards.

THeres a brand of car, the name escapes me but its Japanese sounding, that is popular in many big city areas to take and turn into street racers. they take a 20,000 dollar or so car and put 20-30,000 in engine, frame, suspension,etc upgrades for a mere 10% increase in performance for a price that could give them a basic current production mustang or corvette that blows that modified car out of the water.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-23-2018, 09:57 AM
Neos

Join Date: 
Apr 2012
Posts: 
104
TPC Rating: 
100% (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by minuteshaver View Post
here is what I would like you to do, take 1 magazine loaded with your favorite fat tip and run them through the action 10 times. ie load the mag, run it thorugh, then repeat. Do the test again with your pointiest pointed bullet.

Look at the bullet noses and driving band. youll see a good amount of damage to them. Even after the first time youll see a lot of damage. DO that with a 10/22 and youll see considerable damage.

The gun companies and the ammo companies consider rim fire to be nothing more then short range, 50 yard max, plinking and squirrel shooting off the bird feeder proposition.
Its only the last 20 years that people have taken the 22lr and tried to do the same things that they do with a .22 hornet. Its CUTE that people are bored and rich enough to get a scope and rifle and fancy ammunition and try to hit a Kleenex box at 300 yards.

THeres a brand of car, the name escapes me but its Japanese sounding, that is popular in many big city areas to take and turn into street racers. they take a 20,000 dollar or so car and put 20-30,000 in engine, frame, suspension,etc upgrades for a mere 10% increase in performance for a price that could give them a basic current production mustang or corvette that blows that modified car out of the water.
First off, i will agree that the 10/22 damages the first driving band. The 10/22 is not the only gun out there though. I have no problems with any of my bolt actions. If a bolt action is rubbing off part of the bullet while you load it, tune the magazine and problem solved.

As for those "cute" guys shooting Kleenex boxes at 300 yds. I'm glad that they do. They are the same guys that are figuring out what works at the longer ranges. Then they go on the forums and talk about it and inspire other people to do the same. Pretty soon someone does a match. Then, the matches get popular and people start to experiment more with different things to get an edge at the competitions. Eventually, the gun companies see this and the start mass production. The thing is, without those "cute" guys doing what they do we would never have progress. The matches, whether bench rest or run and gun or whatever are our proving grounds. They are our NASCAR. Everything they do will eventually trickle down and be incorporated for sporting purposes. The reason we have more accurate guns is because someone decided to push the envelope.

Ruger has already offered us a precision rifle with a 30 MOA scope base to shoot at 300 yds, as per Ruger's own advertisement. Do you really think they will be the last company to give us something similar? More importantly though, do you really think the companies aren't paying attention to us. I say they are.

Now as far as the cost is concerned, the beauty of rimfire is that it's cheap. Even if you can't afford to do it every day, you'll probably be able to do it every once in a while. I know I can't afford to shoot Eley very often but I shoot it sometimes. Why should we begrudge the people who can afford to shoot it? Without them, we wouldn't even have Eley as an option.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-23-2018, 10:45 AM
JTJ's Avatar
JTJ
US Air Force Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join! GOA Member

Join Date: 
Oct 2012
Location: 
Arizona
Posts: 
1,825
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
We have seen powder coated bullets in red and green for Christmas and they are very popular. Supposedly shoot well. Segmented bullets in both high and low velocity. Subsonic loads and the Quiet. Wont happen but he logical step would be not a 22 but about 5mm by getting rid of the heal. Just a bullet the same diameter of the inside of the case and in the 32-36 grain range. Could even be pointy as long as no one tried to run a tube magazine. If the pressure was kept the same it would only take a barrel to convert a 10-22.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:09 PM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x