good solvent for subsonic lead ammo - Page 2 - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 06-30-2017, 09:58 PM
only1harry
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Feb 2013
Location: 
NY State
Posts: 
1,087
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)


Log in to see fewer ads
OP, the barrel is not the issue. I clean my .22 barrel about every 3 range trips. It's the bolt and chamber you should be cleaning well. I have 2 Savage Mark II's (BTVSS and FV-SR) and have noticed that the bolt on both guns needs to be cleaned well every 100 rounds or so, and also the chamber looked pretty bad after 130-150 rounds. The first time I went to my 2nd range trip with my first Mark II without cleaning it, it started not extracting very well. I could see the extractor was very dirty. I soaked the bolt and extractor in CLP and let it sit for a few minutes and then wiped it down and I was able to shoot trouble-free until about 50 shots later my groups started to open up. At that point I cleaned the chamber (at the range) and the gun started getting tight groups again.
I suppose it has to do with the ammo you use, but I use good name brand ammo (I shoot 60% CCI SV and Mini Mag, and 40% Eley and Lapua) and no cheap bulk stuff and no Rem GB.

So my recommendation is keep your bolt and chamber clean and worry about the bore less.

I like Ballistol but it needs to be cleaned well and removed from the bore because it leaves a coating/film. This is because Ballistol is also a lubricant. I don't want it sitting in the bore when I go to the range. Ballistol is fine for storage, but wipe your bore clean and completely dry before you shoot the gun, and don't leave it on your chamber either when you go shooting.

Harry
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-30-2017, 11:20 PM
travels4fun

Join Date: 
Feb 2017
Location: 
Cave Creek, Arizona
Posts: 
32
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
You can't go wrong with Bore Tech Rimfire Blend bore cleaner. Anschutz NA uses Bore Tech products in their service department and custom shop which says a lot.

The Rimfire Blend is specially formulated for cleaning rimfire rifles. It dissolves and cleans lead, powder fouling, corrosive residue and bullet wax. It is also biodegradable, ammonia free, odorless and is 100% safe on all barrels. I will pour some in my barrel and leave it to soak for 20 min followed by some dry patches pulled through to remove the gunk. I then run some patches with either Balistol or Kroill applied to a cotton patch followed by a couple of dry patches.



If you shoot copper plated bullets, then Bore Tech Chameleon gel is the way to go. It removes severe carbon, copper, lead and moly fouling. It's odor free, biodegradable and 100% safe for all barrel types.


Last edited by travels4fun; 06-30-2017 at 11:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-01-2017, 02:48 AM
noremf's Avatar
noremf
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2011
Location: 
Alabama
Posts: 
9,834
TPC Rating: 
100% (2)
Bore Tech products

Me in blue:

Not saying not to used either product but...see below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travels4fun View Post
You can't go wrong with Bore Tech Rimfire Blend bore cleaner. Anschutz NA uses Bore Tech products in their service department and custom shop which says a lot.

The Rimfire Blend is specially formulated for cleaning rimfire rifles. It dissolves and cleans lead, powder fouling, corrosive residue and bullet wax.

Bore Tech Rimfire Blend is a glycol based (20%) product with a small amount of ethanol (2.5%) which acts as an emulsifier and the rest is water.

Regardless of the marketing descriptions, none of those chemicals can dissolve lead. Lead oxidation sure but not lead. See post #13 on this thread on oxidation.

Also if you read the instructions they only talk about fouling. Not "bonded" deposits.

You can look that up yourself if you've a mind to.


It is also biodegradable, ammonia free, odorless and is 100% safe on all barrels. I will pour some in my barrel and leave it to soak for 20 min followed by some dry patches pulled through to remove the gunk. I then run some patches with either Balistol or Kroill applied to a cotton patch followed by a couple of dry patches.



If you shoot copper plated bullets, then Bore Tech Chameleon gel is the way to go. It removes severe carbon, copper, lead and moly fouling. It's odor free, biodegradable and 100% safe for all barrel types.

Bore Tech Chameleon Gel is an abrasive bore cleaner, similar to JB paste, contains Aminoethylphosphonic acid which does dissolve lead and copper and an abrasive (calcite) which speeds up the penetration of the acid and polishes the bore AND you have to use a brush to get the stuff to work.

Not gonna do it with patches, at least not in any normal cleaning session.

You can look that up yourself also if you want to.


noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 07-01-2017 at 07:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-01-2017, 03:34 AM
noremf's Avatar
noremf
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2011
Location: 
Alabama
Posts: 
9,834
TPC Rating: 
100% (2)
Not sure about....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrblShtr View Post
MSDS for Ballistol

The only thing I can find on a "ban" was in California in 2014. A brief search didn't indicate if that is still in effect or not, Prop 65 or otherwise. I wash my hands after use, mainly because I only use it to clean guns and I always wash my hands after cleaning guns.

Is still in effect.

One of the issues with Prop 65 is that in some cases a product is banned, such as Tru-Oil® but not gone into as to why...in that case because of the Mineral Spirits in it....but the chemical that caused the ban, again MS is not listed.

Relative to the chemical itself (Mineral Oil) and you can search for this....

"When given to lab rats in small doses, they die. This includes topical, injected, and oral doeses. The four fastest ways for anything to be absorbed into your body are: 1) IV 2)through the skin, 3) under the tongue, and 4) oral digestion.
Mineral oil is basically crude oil. Crude oil is also what motor oil is, mineral oil is just more refined than motor oil. Petroleum jelly is also basically the same thing only hardened. It has been proven that mineral oil is carcinogenic."


and

"Mineral oil —a common ingredient in many kinds of lotions— has been linked to at least 23 diseases, including autoimmune disorders and a number of different cancers.

Furthermore, this mineral oil toxic ingredient— is used in many kinds of sunscreen—is likely to increase your risk of skin cancer, according to areport from Green Med Info. In one animal study, lotions containing mineral oil toxic ingredient were found to multiply the total number of tumors up to 69%."


The debate rages on with folks like Johnson's arguing that it is neither toxic nor a carcinogen but that is to be expected since it is a high profit product, against studies over the last 10 years by various U.S. and European government organizations and independent labs around the world which have found enough proof to either ban or consider banning the chemical from a variety of products such as home care products and baby oil but they cannot deny this.

"Mineral oil forms an oily film over the skin to lock in moisture, toxins and wastes, but hinders normal skin respiration by keeping oxygen out. It blocks the pores and the skin’s natural respiration."

Which started the whole research when John's Hopkins labs proved the above.

Takes a long time for that type of research, took em almost 15 years to require a warning about liquid Silicone and maybe another 5 for an outright ban but when they get to the point they are banning is just about guaranteed.


An analogy would be tobacco products can cause cancer. For over 20 years the tobacco companies said 1. It would not. 2. The research was flawed. 3. They lost in both cases and every one knows about warnings on tobacco products.

As to the effectiveness of Ballistol with a patch on a jag, I can only relate my experience, which is that it is an effective method of cleaning a bore with minor leading. I tend to things before extreme leading takes place so I can't speak to the effectiveness of this method under those conditions.

I do have to walk back my statement "doesn't dissolve anything" as the MSDS indicates that "Ballistol dissolves traces of copper, zinc, lead and tombac...".

Not sure what you mean by "walk back" but traces is nowhere near the same as deposits. Traces can be used as a description for oxidation and still remain legal. In addition if you drill down deeper relative to that wording, you will find that traces is further defined as residue. Not deposits.

After years of regular use I haven't noticed any issues with wood finishes with the incidental exposures they have endured, but then I don't wipe down a stock with Ballistol and I typically run a clean cloth over my stocks as the final step in the cleaning process.
If you do that then the odds of wood contamination are close to zero.

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 07-01-2017 at 07:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-01-2017, 08:44 AM
supersharp's Avatar
supersharp
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2013
Location: 
bleeding liberal CT.
Posts: 
1,395
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I've been using Shooter's Choice MC #7 for years with the patch worm .Wet patches followed by dry patches until it's clean .Then I follow up with a CLP like M-Pro 7 or Shooter's Choice FP 10. As long as you are careful not to get the MC#7 on the wood stock I think you'll be fine .I always have a silicone and a soft cloth readily available in case of an accident. It's always worked for me.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-01-2017, 09:41 AM
noremf's Avatar
noremf
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2011
Location: 
Alabama
Posts: 
9,834
TPC Rating: 
100% (2)
Nobody asked but I am going to post anyway

You see all kinds of posts on how vinegar mixed with hydrogen peroxide is a "magic bullet" for removing lead in .22's or in centerfires shooting cast lead bullets.

It will do that BUT there is a whole bunch of significant issues that "they" either don't mention or don't realize.

First off when you mix those two chemicals together you create PERACETIC ACID which has three nasty properties.

First it is a controlled chemical and is very unsafe. You mix in a metal container and it can blow up.

Second it is an extremely strong oxidizer which means it will create rust almost instantaneously on steel and oxides on the copper or lead which makes "reading" a patch very misleading.

Last but not least is that it will etch steel ala:



The more lead deposits you have the worse the etching will be. If you got a bunch say at the front of the forcing cone or throat or chamber, whatever you want to call it, you are really gonna etch that area.

From a practical standpoint, when you etch a barrel or chamber you geometrically increase lead and copper deposits as well as the "bonding" strength of those deposits.

There are other acids that will do the same thing and they are controlled also.

As I posted before but will again, you don't want to dissolve the lead or copper for that matter cause no matter what you use it will be harmful to the bore! You just want something that will break the bond between the steel and the deposits so that they can be removed.

I would also point out that the "dissolve" word used by marketing in a variety of bore cleaners is simply a conscious choice to make the product more attractive.

Since it is not a government regulated word it can be interpreted by folks just about any way they want. Toxic is another such word. 100% whatever plant/vegetable oil you are talking about is another. Can be 100% of that oil but it does not mean it is not altered to the point that chemically it is no longer considered a plant/vegetable oil.

In virtually every case, if you want to spend the time, which could be 10 minutes to 30 minutes, and you know about chemicals etc. you will find that somewhere in that product specs. "dissolve" is either referencing traces or oxidation.

noremf(George)

PS: Photobucket screwed me over. Pic is from IMGUR.

Last edited by noremf; 07-01-2017 at 11:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-01-2017, 08:47 PM
Black_Talon
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Nov 2005
Location: 
SoCal
Posts: 
639
TPC Rating: 
100% (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by noremf View Post

Not saying not to used either product but...see below.



noremf(George)
So what would you recommend for cleaning 22LR bores?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:05 AM
noremf's Avatar
noremf
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2011
Location: 
Alabama
Posts: 
9,834
TPC Rating: 
100% (2)
Bore cleaning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Talon View Post
So what would you recommend for cleaning 22LR bores?
I don't recommend products. I concentrate on the chemicals in them and post their characteristics and try and make people understand that "terms" used in advertising are not always what they seem to be.

My definition for cleaning the bore is to removing fouling, including the plastic stuff from shotguns, along with lead and copper oxidation and rust via patches. Not brushes and leave a small deposit of some type of protection, normally some type of lube.

Using that definition there are a whole bunch of products that do that and none of them are going to be lubes such as Kroil or Ballistol.

Many of them will also, when used with a brush for scrubbing, encapsulate what the brush frees up so that that junk can also be removed with patches. Most of them will contain relatively small amounts of ammonia hydroxide as well as small amounts of some mild acids which, when the brush scrapes off some of the deposits and exposes the bare metal, will get in those areas and spread under the remaining deposits and break their bond with the bore steel which then speeds up the removal of them.

Those chemicals are required for that process!

If you want a brushless removal of lead and or copper deposits that are bonded to the steel then you need something like Foul Out which uses electricity to break the bond of the deposits and deposit them to a rod down the center of the bore. IE: Electrolysis Think of it as reverse plating.

Unfortunately that product did not survive. Small niche market and not attractive in a society that is constantly demanding faster and faster performance. Can take up to 20 minutes to clean and then do again to make sure. Not hard to spend an hour getting the bore completely clean of deposits like that.

Those that have em don't give em up and even though the solvents are no longer available they can be "home brewed".

You can make your own system but the protocol is pretty much absolute and the amount of electricity to be used is going to be between .3-.5 of a volt. That's 3 tenths to 5 tenths of a volt. If you see something on the net or wherever that is greater then that ignore it!

There is a post on this.

A lot of non Electrolysis products will have instructions to let soak and then use a brush to "remove" stubborn deposits. All of them will be offered by well known companies that have labs and chemists to do the research and test over long periods of time.

NONE of them will be boutique sources or companies.

A boutique source is one that is not a well known "chemical house" and uses advertising that makes the product sound somehow "magical" and makes general statements like "is used by benchrest shooters worldwide" or something along those lines.

Virtually 100% of the time they will simply just take a product such as Hopes #9, or Butches Bore Shine etc., add some solvent to it to get past the legal infringement stuff and create a formulation that they then tout as being a secret formulation and obviously better.

From a sales standpoint Hoppes #9 followed by followed by Butch's Bore Shine are the top sellers for cleaning bores, be it .22 or centerfire.

Which is better? Hoppes #9 has more "lifting" chemicals then Butch's.

Both have lubricating properties which also slows down rust and oxidation. Hoppes #9 relies on Kerosene whereas Butch's Bore Shine uses a small amount of petroleum.

Which is better in that respect? The "motor oil" in Butch's is more effective.

Both have small amounts of acid in them which causes the bond to break between the embedded metal and the bore with sufficient soaking. They also have chemicals to lift that separated metal and encapsulate it so that it can be removed.

Which is better? Would not want to live on the difference.

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 07-02-2017 at 08:11 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-02-2017, 05:43 AM
25ring

Join Date: 
Jan 2012
Posts: 
15
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I'll say it again,instead of all these expensive concoctions try a tight patch soaked with turpentine.You won't believe how well it pulls out leading!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-02-2017, 07:43 AM
noremf's Avatar
noremf
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2011
Location: 
Alabama
Posts: 
9,834
TPC Rating: 
100% (2)
Turpentine

Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ring View Post
I'll say it again,instead of all these expensive concoctions try a tight patch soaked with turpentine.You won't believe how well it pulls out leading!
No matter how many times you say it Turpentine cannot penetrate bonded deposits so that the deposits are no longer attached to the steel!! It is chemically impossible !

It is a child of the White Spirit family, you can look up on WIKI what those children are, and NONE of them from a chemical standpoint can break the bond of any embedded metals!

If you are judging the removal of lead etc. based on the patches then that does not does not mean you are removing embedded lead or copper. See post #13 on what it means and why on this thread. Or this post

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...1&postcount=11

Even if you use a brush you will only remove the oxidation and a minute amount of the bonded metal no matter how many times you brush it. Any brush that will remove enough to get to the steel in bore will also screw that bore up.

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 07-02-2017 at 08:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-02-2017, 09:09 AM
25ring

Join Date: 
Jan 2012
Posts: 
15
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Look,I'm not offering this to be argumentative or get into a ****ing contest.I've used this procedure to get leading out of barrels for almost 2 decades.I found out about it from a BPCR master class shooter.I don't think the turpentine does anything chemically either but it sure does allow the patch to grab onto the leading.Why not try it and see? It's cheap and won't harm your barrel what have you got to lose?I'm just trying to help some people out and pass some info on.I'm sorry you took it as a personal affront.---Mike.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:35 AM
AzShooter's Avatar
AzShooter
US Air Force Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2002
Location: 
Phoenix, Az
Posts: 
1,697
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Stay with your M-Pro 7. It works as well as any other cleaner and there is no smell to it.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-02-2017, 12:20 PM
noremf's Avatar
noremf
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2011
Location: 
Alabama
Posts: 
9,834
TPC Rating: 
100% (2)
Personal affront

Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ring View Post
Look,I'm not offering this to be argumentative or get into a ****ing contest.I've used this procedure to get leading out of barrels for almost 2 decades.I found out about it from a BPCR master class shooter.I don't think the turpentine does anything chemically either but it sure does allow the patch to grab onto the leading.Why not try it and see? It's cheap and won't harm your barrel what have you got to lose?I'm just trying to help some people out and pass some info on.I'm sorry you took it as a personal affront.---Mike.
Did not take it as a personal affront.

My issue is that a posting like yours can cause uneducated RFC members to believe that a chemical, in this case Turpentine, can remove bonded lead regardless of "I've used this procedure to get leading out of barrels for almost 2 decades"

My primary contribution to RFC is in woodworking and I really don't care what finish folks use anymore then what cleaner or solvent they use but I do care that they know what they are using will and will not do.

By the by, I have been a long range BPCR master class shooter since 1970 and competed in virtually every state in the union including Alaska, albeit don't do much anymore, but still mess with long range stuff, 600 yards or better on my own ranges. Cast my own bullets and handload cartridges like 50/140 which is my favorite.

FYI.

Will White Spirits remove BP fouling? Yes.

Will White Spirits remove the lube? Yes

Will White Spirits remove any contaminates that might be in that fouling or lube such as maybe light smears, particles of lead or un-burned powder? Yes.

Will White Spirits Turpentine, known as Mineral Turpentine, do the above? Yes

Will vegetable based Turpentine, known as organic Turpentine, do the above? Yes

Will Turpentine Oil do the same? NO! Turpentine Oil is a resin, not a solvent!

Will any of them remove bonded or fused, some RFC folks relate to that word better, lead or copper? No.

So what is the difference between say original formula Mineral Spirits which Chemical name is Stoddard Solvent, Naptha, Kerosene, both types of Turpentine and other solvents of the C7-C12 hydrocarbon family?

The only real difference in them are the evaporation rate, flash points and "oiliness".

Turpentine evaporates faster then original formula Mineral Spirits but is not as powerful. Naptha has the fastest evaporation of the c7-c12 hydrocarbons but is the least powerful.

Original formula Minerals spirits is the oiliest, Turpentine is less "oily" followed by Naptha which is "driest".

Do some folks use a small amount of Turpentine on a patch between shots and again for a more thorough cleaning after the match.

Yes to #1, not that I know of for #2 unless you are using paper patched bullets in which case if you do that correctly you won't have any bonded/fused lead or copper to remove..

noremf(George)

PS: Turpentine is the only c7-c12 hydrocarbon that can damage a transparent chemical coating so if you don't dismount your action you need to wipe the stock down with a dry old towel to make sure you don't have any that might have gotten on it. It is the only plasticizer of the group.

Last edited by noremf; 07-02-2017 at 12:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-05-2017, 12:46 PM
Shooterman
US Navy Veteran

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Location: 
Calif. Central Coast
Posts: 
364
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
My GP100 leads up from the LSWCs I put through it. I've found that a worn bronze brush wrapped in copper threads (Chore Boy pads) run through the barrel soaked with Butch's Bore Shine for a couple of minutes removes all traces of lead. Everybody has their favorite solution, and all safe ones are worth a try. Experiment intelligently until you find one that works for you.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-05-2017, 01:56 PM
noremf's Avatar
noremf
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2011
Location: 
Alabama
Posts: 
9,834
TPC Rating: 
100% (2)
That works

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooterman View Post
My GP100 leads up from the LSWCs I put through it. I've found that a worn bronze brush wrapped in copper threads (Chore Boy pads) run through the barrel soaked with Butch's Bore Shine for a couple of minutes removes all traces of lead. Everybody has their favorite solution, and all safe ones are worth a try. Experiment intelligently until you find one that works for you.
That works. I know some IHMSA folks that do it.

Need to run a moist patch or two with a good lube after the cleaning though. The earl in Butch's is not the best by a long shot.

noremf(George)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:24 PM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x