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  #16  
Old 05-26-2020, 06:50 PM
Big Larry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balvar24 View Post
I'd never modify an original model. It would lose all it's collector appeal.






It also will lose collector appeal with two non factory holes in the receiver.
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  #17  
Old 05-26-2020, 07:03 PM
M52E1
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Larry,

If you are a collector, then why would you want to modify a rifle to represent something it never was? Isn't the appeal of collecting something like a M-52 finding those examples which have survived the ages without being modified? Seems to me that changing barrels defeats the point of collecting as once the barrel is changed the "new rifle" is nothing more than a representation of what an original rifle would have looked like. I surely would not want to purchase a M-52 with stainless or nickel steel barrel only to find out that it had been cobbled together by the previous owner.

If you were quick to discount a rifle with the so called "crack of doom" I would like to know how much you would be willing to discount one that doesn't include the original factory barrel?

Bill
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  #18  
Old 05-26-2020, 10:30 PM
SBS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seewin View Post
The 52 Stainless Steel barrels were Japanned, not iron plated and blued like the Swifts and other 70's in SS. All the lever action Winchesters as well as the shotgun barrels in SS were Japanned as other 22's already mentioned. Early 54 SS barrels were finished this way as well. These early SS barrels were only offered from 1926 until the early 30's. I also have a early factory C model with experimental SS barrel. It had no finish what so ever.
Steve
Interesting info. on the SS 52 barrels. Wonder why Win. didn't plate and blue them? Maybe the results weren't conducive to accuracy for some reason? Can't imagine cost being a consideration as it was a new type premium target rifle. Any info. on the reason or even a logical guess?
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  #19  
Old 05-27-2020, 07:44 AM
Rick H.
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Larry: I guess I must be different than most people regarding the D/T'd holes. If they were put in the firearm in a proper manner for a specific purpose and still have use then the holes don't bother me in the least. If you don't like them, then plug them. Proper shouldered filler screws never look out of place in my mind. Now if the holes have been butchered into the gun then all bets are off. I sometimes think we put far too much emphasis on things like this and lose all sense of reality. Holes will be put in firearms and will no doubt continue to be put in firearms. As long as they serve a purpose and are professionally done it's no big deal. It's part of a firearms history. It's a plus if I can use the existing holes to mount a quality sight or scope, but then again I shoot ALL my firearms. There are no safe queens in my house. However when you start messing around switching barrels and such that does concern me in the same manner of replacing main components in a classic/vintage automobile or motorcycle. Now the firearm is truly altered from original in a major way.

Rick H.
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  #20  
Old 05-27-2020, 07:58 AM
Seewin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBS View Post
Interesting info. on the SS 52 barrels. Wonder why Win. didn't plate and blue them? Maybe the results weren't conducive to accuracy for some reason? Can't imagine cost being a consideration as it was a new type premium target rifle. Any info. on the reason or even a logical guess?
I don't believe Winchester had developed the plating/bluing process on the SS barrels when they were first introduced in the 20's. Thus they Japanned them. Supposedly this finish was very unpopular due to the durability and subsequent wear and appearance. Most of these early SS barreled firearms you see to day have had the finish completely removed. I think this experience is what prompted Winchester to develop the plating/bluing process on the later produced Swift SS barrels in the mid 30's.
Steve

Last edited by Seewin; 05-27-2020 at 08:02 AM.
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  #21  
Old 05-27-2020, 11:07 AM
Big Larry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick H. View Post
Larry: I guess I must be different than most people regarding the D/T'd holes. If they were put in the firearm in a proper manner for a specific purpose and still have use then the holes don't bother me in the least. If you don't like them, then plug them. Proper shouldered filler screws never look out of place in my mind. Now if the holes have been butchered into the gun then all bets are off. I sometimes think we put far too much emphasis on things like this and lose all sense of reality. Holes will be put in firearms and will no doubt continue to be put in firearms. As long as they serve a purpose and are professionally done it's no big deal. It's part of a firearms history. It's a plus if I can use the existing holes to mount a quality sight or scope, but then again I shoot ALL my firearms. There are no safe queens in my house. However when you start messing around switching barrels and such that does concern me in the same manner of replacing main components in a classic/vintage automobile or motorcycle. Now the firearm is truly altered from original in a major way.

Rick H.
Rick, I am a collector and holes really do not belong in a collector weapon. This scarce SS rifle came to me with a Lyman 48 rather crudely installed. The cut in the sporterized stock was atrocious at best. The bbl. was the nicest one I have ever seen and needed to be saved. I found a donor rifle just 200 numbers off. It had problems as well, but I could use the receiver and the stock. Anyway, no one to change bbls. so I used the stock and plugged the holes. It is still the same #7001 with a stock change and the M87A rear sight. Sometimes you do what you have to do. I don't make a practice of this but to save a scarce M52 with a stainless bbl.? No brainer. A great restoration that is impossible to spot. Big Larry
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  #22  
Old 05-27-2020, 06:35 PM
M52E1
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Larry,

What it is the discount as a "restoration?"

Bill
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  #23  
Old 05-27-2020, 08:09 PM
Trailboss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Larry View Post
Rick, I am a collector and holes really do not belong in a collector weapon. ... Sometimes you do what you have to do. I don't make a practice of this but to save a scarce M52 with a stainless bbl.? No brainer. A great restoration that is impossible to spot. Big Larry
There is nothing wrong with restoring a firearm back to a pristine condition as long as it's labeled as a restored firearm. In the situation where parts have been replaced, then the firearm is now considered restored and also considered non-original as an assembly. The parts used can be called original and in very good condition but the restored and non-original rifle never left the factory as a unit. It was never saved as a unit. The parts might all be saved original parts that have been assembled into a restored and non-original unit but regardless of whether the restoration of the non-original is detectable or not, it is still a restored non-original unit and should be forever regarded as such.

Last edited by Trailboss; 05-27-2020 at 08:12 PM.
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  #24  
Old 05-27-2020, 09:28 PM
Big Larry
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So, would you guys rather have a cobbled up rifle with no more than a bbl. switch, or a sporterized, completely ruined scarce M52?
I have no intention of selling the rifle. I very seldom sell my guns.
So, I will leave it as is with the swiss cheesed receiver and switched stock. Cannot be worth much that way. Big Larry

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  #25  
Old 05-28-2020, 01:24 AM
Trailboss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Larry View Post
So, would you guys rather have a cobbled up rifle with no more than a bbl. switch, or a sporterized, completely ruined scarce M52?
I have no intention of selling the rifle. I very seldom sell my guns.
So, I will leave it as is with the swiss cheesed receiver and switched stock. Cannot be worth much that way. Big Larry
Since I'm not a museum and I don't buy on behalf of a museum, I purchase what I like and what I think I'll use. If a firearm is unfired and antique and I buy it, I shoot it and carry it and enjoy it. I personally don't enjoy having a gun in a safe that's too nice or too rare or too fragile to shoot.

Though your rifle sounds like it's very rare and the barrel is in very good condition, I personally would trade it for a shooter. I don't value a rifle that is so delicate that it can't be handled or so heavy that it can't be carried. Just not my cup of tea.

Decades ago, I owned a mint unfired 1851 Colt Navy. I kept it for a couple of months and then traded it for a gun collection of shooters. Have never regretted the trade.
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  #26  
Old 05-28-2020, 10:44 AM
Big Larry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailboss View Post
Since I'm not a museum and I don't buy on behalf of a museum, I purchase what I like and what I think I'll use. If a firearm is unfired and antique and I buy it, I shoot it and carry it and enjoy it. I personally don't enjoy having a gun in a safe that's too nice or too rare or too fragile to shoot.

Though your rifle sounds like it's very rare and the barrel is in very good condition, I personally would trade it for a shooter. I don't value a rifle that is so delicate that it can't be handled or so heavy that it can't be carried. Just not my cup of tea.

Decades ago, I owned a mint unfired 1851 Colt Navy. I kept it for a couple of months and then traded it for a gun collection of shooters. Have never regretted the trade.
I have near 185 guns of all types. I have a few 100 year old S&W's that I would never consider shooting.
I love 22 rifles. I have a very eclectic selection and do shoot most of them. My collectible lever guns are just that, collectible, and I do not shoot them either. The only wear they get is bumping around in my safe.
The difference between shooters and collectibles has been discussed many times here. It's just a matter of preference.
My take, is if you start shooting an unfired collectible, you can shave many $$$ off what the gun is worth. No problem if you intend to keep the gun. When your offspring go to sell them, and they will, they will not bring top $$$.
True, I am a collector, but I do shoot some of my guns. If you have fired a 30-30 you have fired them all. Same with most 22's.
You guys that shoot your minty guns are driving the prices up as there are fewer of them. Big Larry
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  #27  
Old 05-28-2020, 11:27 AM
Trailboss
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A much smarter and wise man than myself once wrote: "So I loathed all the fruit of my effort, for which I worked so hard on earth, because I must leave it behind in the hands of my successor. Who knows if he will be a wise man or a fool? Yet he will be master over all the fruit of my labor for which I worked so wisely on earth! This also is futile! So I began to despair about all the fruit of my labor for which I worked so hard on earth. For a man may do his work with wisdom, knowledge, and skill; however, he must hand over the fruit of his labor as an inheritance to someone else who did not work for it. This also is futile, and an awful injustice!"

The same man later writes: "I have concluded that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to enjoy themselves as long as they live, and also that everyone should eat and drink, and find enjoyment in all his toil, for these things are a gift from God."
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  #28  
Old 05-28-2020, 03:28 PM
Rick H.
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I once bought what I thought was a truly collectable firearm. I was a relatively new trooper at the time making low dog pay, but I fell in love with a special Colt SSA. I could be wrong , but I think it had a 3.5" barrel on it with an ejector rod. Now Colt never put an ejector rod on the short barreled SSA's back in the day, so when I saw this revolver I just had to have it. It was a .45 LC nickel plated and just as pretty as a picture. Colt made something like 100 in .45 LC and 100 in .44-40. I gave up a few of my prized firearms to get it, but I got it with a stern warning from the gun shop owner to not fire this gun or the sky would fall on its value.

I dutifully kept live ammo out of that gun for almost 6 years and every so often took it out of the safe and wiped it down and put it back in the darkness of the abyss. I did some research at 7 years with that gun and discovered the value on it hadn't come up at all and worse yet the shop I bought it from said he would give me about 60% of what I paid for it. So with that information in hand I said screw it! I want to shoot this thing money be %%%%ed! So off to the range we went, Colt SSA, ammo and targets. I was shaking like a leaf when it came time to pull the trigger on the first round, but once it went off it became much easier to fire the little Colt. After I went back home I cleaned the gun as best as I could and would occasionally take it out and shoot it just for the experience. It shot pretty well too for a short barreled .45 SSA.

Well into my 10th year with that Colt I learned the value still hadn't come up much on it and I decided to sell it. I took it to a local gun show and got way more than I thought possible for it to another guy who fell in love with it. I made money on that gun after all. Had I not shot that gun I never would have known how much fun it was on the range especially from other shooters who just wanted to come look at it. I had one other revolver like that made by US Patent Firearms. It was a 5.5' .45 LC SSA Bisley. I took great care of that gun for years too never shooting it until my experience with the Colt. I finally shot the Bisley and sold it off too. I regret selling the Bisley, but not the short barreled Colt.

Something changed in my head after that and I swore I would never own another firearm that I was afraid to shoot. If it's that collectable it needs to be in a museum, not in my safe. I came to the conclusion I work hard to buy certain things, firearms included and I want to enjoy them, not my kids or someone that comes along later on. When I am gone my firearms will move on one way or another and I will have no say on where the go, but at least while I am still of this earth I will enjoy the fruits of my work. A firearm is meant to be shot and enjoyed not stuffed away from the light of day and if I don't shoot that firearm well and can't make it so, off it goes to someone else. Life is too short to put up with something I can't shoot well and not have fun with.

Rick H.
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  #29  
Old 05-28-2020, 03:43 PM
Big Larry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick H. View Post
I once bought what I thought was a truly collectable firearm. I was a relatively new trooper at the time making low dog pay, but I fell in love with a special Colt SSA. I could be wrong , but I think it had a 3.5" barrel on it with an ejector rod. Now Colt never put an ejector rod on the short barreled SSA's back in the day, so when I saw this revolver I just had to have it. It was a .45 LC nickel plated and just as pretty as a picture. Colt made something like 100 in .45 LC and 100 in .44-40. I gave up a few of my prized firearms to get it, but I got it with a stern warning from the gun shop owner to not fire this gun or the sky would fall on its value.

I dutifully kept live ammo out of that gun for almost 6 years and every so often took it out of the safe and wiped it down and put it back in the darkness of the abyss. I did some research at 7 years with that gun and discovered the value on it hadn't come up at all and worse yet the shop I bought it from said he would give me about 60% of what I paid for it. So with that information in hand I said screw it! I want to shoot this thing money be %%%%ed! So off to the range we went, Colt SSA, ammo and targets. I was shaking like a leaf when it came time to pull the trigger on the first round, but once it went off it became much easier to fire the little Colt. After I went back home I cleaned the gun as best as I could and would occasionally take it out and shoot it just for the experience. It shot pretty well too for a short barreled .45 SSA.

Well into my 10th year with that Colt I learned the value still hadn't come up much on it and I decided to sell it. I took it to a local gun show and got way more than I thought possible for it to another guy who fell in love with it. I made money on that gun after all. Had I not shot that gun I never would have known how much fun it was on the range especially from other shooters who just wanted to come look at it. I had one other revolver like that made by US Patent Firearms. It was a 5.5' .45 LC SSA Bisley. I took great care of that gun for years too never shooting it until my experience with the Colt. I finally shot the Bisley and sold it off too. I regret selling the Bisley, but not the short barreled Colt.

Something changed in my head after that and I swore I would never own another firearm that I was afraid to shoot. If it's that collectable it needs to be in a museum, not in my safe. I came to the conclusion I work hard to buy certain things, firearms included and I want to enjoy them, not my kids or someone that comes along later on. When I am gone my firearms will move on one way or another and I will have no say on where the go, but at least while I am still of this earth I will enjoy the fruits of my work. A firearm is meant to be shot and enjoyed not stuffed away from the light of day and if I don't shoot that firearm well and can't make it so, off it goes to someone else. Life is too short to put up with something I can't shoot well and not have fun with.

Rick H.
Amongst my boxed and unfired guns, I have a 1958 vintage Colt 45 Buntline Special. I bought this gun in the very early 60's for $145. I don't know what it is worth now as I don't keep up with Colts. I recently Ren Waxed it and put it back in it's original, numbered box. No, I will never fire it and neither will my Stepson who will inherit it. I am quite sure it is worth more, unfired. Big Larry
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  #30  
Old 05-28-2020, 05:56 PM
justinp61
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I'm a shooter and do have a few nice rifles but I shoot them. I have no problem with someone swapping barrels as long as it's not represented as original. Once the swap is made it's not original any more, it's a collection of parts. Just like a muscle car without it's original engine or transmission is not original any more, and no correct date codes don't work either.
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