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  #1  
Old 07-02-2015, 09:08 AM
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Old Brno 1 year of manufacturing



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A family member just recently bought this old Brno 1 (for next to nothing I may add....). Thanks to some old posts by TOU, I was able to decipher the Z7 mark (factory location), the T mark (Quality Control Stamp) and of course the Czech Lyon mark. There are some other marks that I can"t recognize. The right side of the receiver has what appears to be a secondary serial number.
Any ideas when this rifle was made or what the other marks may stand for? Thanks in advance!


Last edited by Someday; 07-02-2015 at 10:06 AM.
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  #2  
Old 07-02-2015, 12:22 PM
mauser22
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That is not a secondary serial number. Your gun was proofed on three occasions. The Circle T crossed sabers and serial number place it originally made in 1948 or 49 under the then existing Communist mandated proofs or military acceptance marks. And as you note the the Property Mark Z7 for Communist Youth Group. The Commercial Czech Lion proofs likely were added later and that appears to be in July of 1961 Some of these originally military accepted were commercially proofed later for sales as political changes and cash flow dictated. Some appear to have set in storage in between those proofings. Your gun was proofed yet a third time in 1998. This is not surprising given the history and upheaval in the country at those points in time. Depending on when pulled from Government stocks for sale outside the country and what the country of destination was, the proofing requirements varied. All that makes the gun really talk if you are interested in history. Besides that you have what appears to be a really good example of the best 5 shot bolt action sporting rifle ever made, anywhere, anytime - Period.

Enjoy!

Last edited by mauser22; 07-02-2015 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 07-02-2015, 12:45 PM
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In my humble opinion Mauser .22 nailed it, very nice rifle with a history it would seem.
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  #4  
Old 07-02-2015, 12:55 PM
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I agree. I almost started to answer about the three proofs right after Sometime posted, but decided to wait and hope someone with lots better information replied. Good job, Mauser.
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Old 07-02-2015, 01:30 PM
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Model 1

I have owned two rifles much the same as yours. They are marked identical to the tgf guns without the tgf marking on the front receiver ring. They are exactly like the other Model ones made '48 to end except they will not have Brno Model 1 on the barrel or proof marks. I think they were made during the production run of the tgf guns and perhaps were over-runs and were in the same serial number sequence which is unique to this run of rifles. The barrel configuration makes the "parts left over from WWII" stories very suspect.

These are my opinions. I wish there was a definitive book on these fine rifles and I agree that you got a very good deal on one of the best .22 rifles ever produced.

John
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Old 07-02-2015, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beartrax View Post
I have owned two rifles much the same as yours. They are marked identical to the tgf guns without the tgf marking on the front receiver ring. They are exactly like the other Model ones made '48 to end except they will not have Brno Model 1 on the barrel or proof marks. I think they were made during the production run of the tgf guns and perhaps were over-runs and were in the same serial number sequence which is unique to this run of rifles. The barrel configuration makes the "parts left over from WWII" stories very suspect.

These are my opinions. I wish there was a definitive book on these fine rifles and I agree that you got a very good deal on one of the best .22 rifles ever produced.

John

We all look forward to a reference on these and in fact a very long and serious work has been on-going by 35WCF. We must be patient as to produce a CORRECT and definitive reference on any European gun, particularly one shrouded by the Political and Geographic barriers of the Cold War is extremely difficult. Add to that the intrigues that existed right up the the beginning of this last century due to outside influences and internal conflicts resulting from NAZI, Communist, and ethnic conflicts. Don't give up on him. I know him to be serious, and a dedicated student of the gun. There is considerable mis-information and are myths unsupported by historical facts circulating.

You are correct. I am in possession of literature from Brno which states the gun was developed in late 1945 (post war) and first went into production in 1946.

This is born out by observed examples.

Those first two years they were referred to only as "Model 1" and made in a slightly different configuration with larger receiver port and sporting profile front sight. All of these bear only the standard Commercial Czech Lion proof and year date.

In 1948 the Government rolled over to Communist Control and the Gun became the ZKM451 (aka and still marked on barrel Model 1) Demands for .22 training rifles within the country and other Warsaw Pact countries resulted in the Circle T and Crossed Sabers (Military Acceptance) on most guns. With some guns also made same period alternately proofed or additionally proofed withe the Czech Lion so they could be exported (sold for cash into country). Serial numbering appears to have started over at that point with the first TGF marked guns. East Germany, Romania also used the Model 1.

Changes in the Government and Proof laws in 1950 resulted in some guns being proofed with the Star of the Prague Proof style and or the Czech Lion proof.
Again this was driven by changes in Government andintended user and or market. By the last years of production on the Model 1 only the Czech Commercial Lion proof was used.

That said, any of them from any period may have been reproofed various and sundry ways to meet the requirements of the country being exported to. Some will be seen with Post War German Proofs added, Some with British Proofs added.

Where the guns were surplus (ex trainers or from Government stocks) they would most often require reproofing with Commercial Czech Lion proofs.

And that style proofing was more universally recognized and accepted by countries the guns were being exported to.

Confusing but interesting and a great aid to sorting out any particular example's time travels.

Good Collecting!!!!

Last edited by mauser22; 07-03-2015 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 07-02-2015, 01:34 PM
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Thanks fellows. While it is not rocket science, it does take some study and historical background to sort out.

The political and economic situation in Czechoslovakia at the times these guns were produced and much later (in some cases) when they were sold from Government stocks, creates one of the most diverse and confusing group of variations in proofing of any .22 rimfire I am aware of.

Proof laws in virtually all European Countries are much more stringent than in the U.S. and armed with some back ground in that, they can be of great help in not only dating production, but determining what the intended market, user, and travels of European guns were.

I have applied considerable time to those studies.

Last edited by mauser22; 07-03-2015 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 10-23-2019, 04:46 PM
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Yes the tgf is there... pictures later
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Old 10-24-2019, 05:34 AM
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Old 10-24-2019, 06:54 AM
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tgf

Very nice rifle, there is a wealth of information in the stickies on this forum about the BRNO tgf, forerunner to the model 1. I have one with a slightly later serial number and my best efforts and some expert advice would date it around 1946. There is no date stamp on these rifles.
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  #11  
Old 10-24-2019, 07:09 AM
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Thanks... I was guessing about 1945 for mine... but you guys have much more knowledge about that stuff here
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Old 10-24-2019, 08:07 AM
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Unfortunately guessing is about all we can do on the tgf's I'm just happy to have one of the nicer condition ones.


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Old 10-24-2019, 08:52 AM
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Based on small changes made during production, I think all the tgf guns were made in 1949 or 1950. Also I have a document that indicates the tgf code was not used until 1949. WCF 35 also came to the same conclusion after studying these rifles at great length. These are my opinions, I encourage you to make your own. And no I am not claiming to be the Brno expert.
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Old 10-24-2019, 09:01 AM
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Father in law was full Czech, my wife 1/2 Czech... me... I'm not much of a BRNO expert... as I have no Czech in me...

I will admit though, that the lil "X 39" carbine is one of my favorite rifles, that one will not be for sale, & may have to get buried with me

Last edited by MagnumWheelMan; 10-24-2019 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 10-24-2019, 05:42 PM
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Took a boat load of pictures tonight... will post tomorrow
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