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  #1  
Old 06-11-2021, 06:47 AM
clisbyclark

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Question about 17 HMR ammo.



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Pardon my ignorance but I understand there is no "match" ammo available for the HMR? However most of the bulk ammo is able to produce near/sub MOA groups on a regular basis. OTOH, to get similar accuracy with 22LR, most of us turn to the match ammo.

Does the higher speed of the HMR just make it more accurate? I don't see that being the case as I have never heard anyone tout accuracy advantages for the 22 Mag or hypervelocity ammo over the subsonic match grade LR.

What are your thoughts?
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Old 06-11-2021, 07:01 AM
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Bullet shape. The accuracy problem with hmr relates to inconsistencies in the cases, loads and primer. The projectiles are pretty darn consistent. Velocity is a bigger factor for 22 lr cause the bullet shape causes problems when the projectile goes transonic. So the most accurate 22 lr are subsonic. Not as much or any problem wiith hmr and other supersonic loads.
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Old 06-11-2021, 07:21 AM
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True "jacketed bullet", bullet shape, velocity etc., jaia will be along to tell you all who say it's accurate are delusional, well somebody is anyway...

Just had to jaia

His standard is a whole box at 100 yards, most of us are happy with 5 shot groups.
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  #4  
Old 06-11-2021, 07:35 AM
jaia
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I'll give ya' that one Gerald.

Not like I don't deserve it.

Being a trifle OCD is my explanation for my behavior.

5 shots is a random act of accuracy.
10 shots is a wallet group.
25 shots is a good start, 50 is my minimum
and 100 provides enough information to produce some useful conclusions.


As for transonic effects on the 22lr, there's been too much data produced showing it to have insignificant effect on accuracy.
The reason Hi-V 22lr is so inaccurate is not due to the transition effects, but due to poor quality cartridges.
Do you really expect cheap bulk ammo to produce predictable accuracy? I don't.


Back to 17hmr...I wonder what would happen if ya' had to show the results of the whole box
on something like the USBR Green Monster, before you could claim it was a consistently accurate cartridge.
The 17 hmr is intended for hunting/varminting, not precision paper punching.
High velocity minimizes time of flight, small diameter allows less wind loading,
but as CCI and Winchester are the only companies producing the cartridges
and neither provide anything but minimal quality control, expect mv spread and strays.

Last edited by jaia; 06-11-2021 at 07:50 AM.
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Old 06-11-2021, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
As for transonic effects on the 22lr, there's been too much data produced showing it to have insignificant effect on accuracy.
Absolutely agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
The reason Hi-V 22lr is so inaccurate is not due to the transition effects, but due to poor quality cartridges.
I'm afraid it will always be thus. Manufacturing a high quality .22 LR round has always been, and will always remain, an extremely non-trivial problem. Physics is a b*t*h.

For all it's greatness the .22 LR was a mathematically hobbled design right out of the gate. Inspired, definitely. The Reliant Robin was also undoubtedly inspired. But a sound design...?

Well...you be the judge.

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Old 06-11-2021, 11:22 AM
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If the manufacturing flaws are responsible for all the inaccuracies in hv 22 lr ammo and the transition from supersonic to subsonic is not a factor ,my question is this.

What match grade HV and SV 22lr ammo did they use to determine this?

Cause my non match grade sub sonic ammo cci sv, is more accurate at 50 yards than my non match grade supersonic ammo CCI minimags, . Just more defects in the mini mags? I kinda doubt that. Maybe the defects just enhance the transonic effects?
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Old 06-11-2021, 11:32 AM
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The study used custom loaded 22lr for Hi-V.
Penage Guy read through the fine print in the McCoy publication of the Aberdeen testing.
I'll find you the link....

this thread...https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1222571

here's another one...https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...postcount=1348

Last edited by jaia; 06-11-2021 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 06-11-2021, 11:36 AM
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To address the OP's original question, I remember an article written in one of the gun magazines by Dave Emary of Hornady concerning development of the .17 HMR cartridge. Even though the cartridge was never meant to be a match target round, it was developed to be more accurate than the .22Mag. Most folks believe that the
.17HMR is simply the .22Mag necked down. That is not the case. The .17HMR is nominally based on the dimensions of the .22Mag but the manufacturing specs are tighter than for the .22Mag. Dave Emary specified tighter control on case dimensions, primer, powder, and bullet for the .17HMR. over the .22Mag.
The overall results make the .17HMR more accurate than the .22Mag but still not a match grade target ammo. When it first came out I bought several boxes of the early
.17HMR ammo that was originally manufactured by Hornady. It was very accurate. Subsequently, the round became so popular that Hornady transferred manufacturing to CCI. In my experience, the CCI manufactured rounds are good, but not nearly as accurate as the original Hornady rounds.
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Old 06-13-2021, 07:06 AM
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I agree with joet333. I purchased an Marlin 917 VS not long after the 17 hmr arrived on the scene. So early in fact I couldn’t find ammo and had to wait months before I could shoot it. When I finally did get to the range with it I was amazed at just how accurate this tiny little cartridge was. Fast forward to today and the ammo can’t compare to the early version in accuracy. Is it low quality standards by CCI or well worn machinery causing the decline? Whatever it is I can’t get the tiny little groups now that I did when the round was new.

I do 5 round groups, let the gun cool to ambiant temperature, shoot another group, and repeat. As long as the groups hit the target in the same place with the same general size that tells me things are OK. After all I have never seen a prairiedog or jackrabbit that will sit still for 100 shots.

Edited to add: I used to own a pretty accurate 22 warm. The 17 hmr beats the best it ever did in accuracy by about half with the early ammo and is still better with today’s version.

Last edited by Arrowhead; 06-13-2021 at 07:18 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joet333 View Post
To address the OP's original question, I remember an article written in one of the gun magazines by Dave Emary of Hornady concerning development of the .17 HMR cartridge. Even though the cartridge was never meant to be a match target round, it was developed to be more accurate than the .22Mag. Most folks believe that the
.17HMR is simply the .22Mag necked down. That is not the case. The .17HMR is nominally based on the dimensions of the .22Mag but the manufacturing specs are tighter than for the .22Mag. Dave Emary specified tighter control on case dimensions, primer, powder, and bullet for the .17HMR. over the .22Mag.
The overall results make the .17HMR more accurate than the .22Mag but still not a match grade target ammo. When it first came out I bought several boxes of the early
.17HMR ammo that was originally manufactured by Hornady. It was very accurate. Subsequently, the round became so popular that Hornady transferred manufacturing to CCI. In my experience, the CCI manufactured rounds are good, but not nearly as accurate as the original Hornady rounds.
Just curious, you say Hornady manufactured the first 17 hmr. then CCI took over. Do you know if that would have been when the labeling on the Hornady boxes changed?

Wonderdog1
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Old Yesterday, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clisbyclark View Post
Does the higher speed of the HMR just make it more accurate? I don't see that being the case as I have never heard anyone tout accuracy advantages for the 22 Mag or hypervelocity ammo over the subsonic match grade LR.

What are your thoughts?
It helps because of characteristics of the bullet shape more resembling a typical centerfire round and as mentioned, time of flight to the intended target.
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  #12  
Old Yesterday, 09:09 AM
joet333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderdog1 View Post
Just curious, you say Hornady manufactured the first 17 hmr. then CCI took over. Do you know if that would have been when the labeling on the Hornady boxes changed?

Wonderdog1
Can't say for sure since I threw away my empty original Hornady boxes. You may be able to identify it by the lot number system used by Hornady versus CCI. I think they would be different.
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Old Yesterday, 01:24 PM
wonderdog1
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Originally Posted by joet333 View Post
Can't say for sure since I threw away my empty original Hornady boxes. You may be able to identify it by the lot number system used by Hornady versus CCI. I think they would be different.
Not a big deal, l used the older stuff up along time ago. I was just trying to come up with a time line.

My friends and l had trouble with a lot of split brass back when we where using stuff from the older boxes. My cousin just recently purchased some Hornady in the older boxes (not knowing any difference) and is having lots of split brass issues. I told him to check his remaining shells for splits before shooting, he did and found some. I had some issues a few years ago and Hornady had me send it back to them and replaced with no charge. I told him to do the same.

Wonderdog1
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