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  #1  
Old 06-02-2017, 10:39 PM
dryholer
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D-rock tool Question,,



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Im hollow pointing some shells,Im using a D-rock tool/dye,Im using diff types of ammo,some subsonic some high vel, the question is by driving or using a press to make a hollow point by compression energy, will this make the lead in the bullet more dense? it shouldnt change its critical weight points i think, but what about making the bullet harder by displacing the volume of the hollow into the sides?
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  #2  
Old 06-02-2017, 10:56 PM
robs9
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In another question. By doing that does it seat the bullet too deep? And cause other problems, like failure to seat or feed correctly. Maybe some kind of over pressures?
Why if you want HPs drill them out without pushing on the bullett or just buy them?

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Old 06-02-2017, 11:34 PM
wkd
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lead does not work harden, it gets softer.
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  #4  
Old 06-02-2017, 11:48 PM
c2shync
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Can't speak for D Rock but my tool is very similar and works in my RCBS Rock Chucker.
My tool can make long deep hp's of more shallow large opening hp's. The tool does not compress the lead but rather separates/pushes it outward thus making or enlarging an existing hole.
There is a EPS type (dimpled flat top like Eley) tip that does in fact press downward to flatten an existing round nose bullet. Some say that will increase accuracy. I do not use it very much but it makes beautiful round holes in paper when shot.
Anyone can use any tool to misshapen a projectile to the point that it will not even chamber but you have to be intending to create a problem for there to be one.
My hollow points shoot great!! Especially impressive is the Gemtech 42 grain with large opening hp's. fd
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Old 06-02-2017, 11:55 PM
dryholer
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Gem-tech is one of the brands im tweeking! im making a large hollow point an iv not shot it at paper yet but at 45yd puts a big hole in a squirrels head with a loud thwack!
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Old 06-03-2017, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robs9 View Post
In another question. By doing that does it seat the bullet too deep? And cause other problems, like failure to seat or feed correctly. Maybe some kind of over pressures?
Why if you want HPs drill them out without pushing on the bullett or just buy them?

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I don't have any of the hollow point making tools, but I have messed with the rounds quite a bit. You'd have to exert a lot of force to actually push the bullet into the case any. This isn't a jacketed bullet that fits inside the case mouth. The bullet is the same diameter as the case. Also the bullet is lead. I don't think it would be possible to deform it enough to cause pressure issues, and still have it chamber.

Drilling them out reduces weight, which reduces downrange energy. Not what you want for hunting ammo. Also unless you are really anal the holes most likely won't be consistently perfectly centered which will effect accuracy. As far as buying them, hollowpoints of any variety are primarily considered hunting rounds. They generally don't go through the same level of QC that even lower end target ammo does. Thus they aren't as consistent. These tools (there are several different ones) allow you to take whatever ammo your gun shoots well, and make hollow points out of it.
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Old 06-03-2017, 12:57 AM
robs9
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Have never needed to change them I quess.

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Old 06-03-2017, 01:16 AM
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Have never needed to change them I quess.

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Me either personally, but I can see the reasoning behind it. I only take head shots squirrel hunting, so round nose or hollow point makes no difference. Most people aren't like that though, and if I took body shots I'd want a hollow point on the most accurate ammo possible too.
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Old 06-03-2017, 01:16 AM
PlinksAlot
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FYI, if you didn't see, D-rock(Derrick) passed away recently. Be happy you have one of his tools.
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  #10  
Old 06-03-2017, 03:32 AM
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DRock tools

I spent a fair amount of time a few years ago on the phone and via email with Derek and he was a class act.

A few years ago, 2010, seven shooting buddies and I spent 7 months testing the 3 most common .22 non-magnum rimfire resizers under the strictest control we could manage. They were the Waltz, DRock and Paco.

I have my own ranges.

All of the weapons were stock, just as they come from the factory, and had at least 1,000 rounds through them. The weapons chosen for the testing were not target rifles or pistols although we did mess with a few of those just to see the results.

The goal was to test what the average shooter would be using from both a weapon and ammo standpoint.

The range was 50 yards for pistols and 100 yards for rifles regardless of sights.

We spent a tad over 3 months prepping for this testing which included talking to and emailing the major folks that made and tested that type of ammo.

Testing was for 20 different weapons, rifles and pistols, and 5 brands of bulk ammo consuming roughly 8,000 rounds of record about the same for groups that were quarantined for a variety of reasons. Testing was done primarily for accuracy increases or decreases, concentricity, and bullet weight, hardness, chamber and bore casts etc. using a variety of different measuring tools including some lab equipment like laser measuring for bullet diameters and lab quality electronic scales.

There is a sticky on the results of that testing.

In reference to some of the statements in this thread:

1. .22 non-magnum rimfire lead bullets, just like any other cast bullet, centers on the driving bands, not the nose ogive that jacketed bullets do. The fit of those driving bands to the chamber or throat, whatever you want to call it can have a dramatic effect on accuracy whether it be good or bad.



Larger pic with larger cast bullets but shows the resized driving bands and how the lube fills them. Fundamentally the same for the .22 non magnum rimfire cartridge.



2. The Waltz and DRock dies are single dimensional diameter dies whereas the Paco are multi-dimensional. With the Waltz and DRock if you get an accuracy increase or decrease it simply means that that diameter fits the weapon better or worse and if better just is coincidental....not by design. They do not advertise accuracy improvements as a root result of the dies but rather the creation of a better hunting bullet.

3. With the Paco tool(s) you can test, depending on how many sizing dies you order, up to 6 different bullet diameters and in the majority of cases can find an improvement in accuracy where the fit of the driving bands match the chamber/throat.

He, Paco, does advertise accuracy improvement as a root result of his dies and they are patented by the way.

Any time that you remove metal from a bullet, regardless of whether it be cast or jacketed you alter 1, if not all of the critical points which are the longitudinal axis, center of pressure and center of gravity which in most cases adversely affects the design and performance of the bullet. At shorter ranges such as 25 or 50 yards this may not be noticeable.

If you simply reform the nose and the driving bands when you do that then you do not remove metal so those critical areas are not changed enough to matter.

You will get a bullet that is rounder and more consistent, diameter wise.

With the Waltz and DRock tools you can drive the bullet deeper into the case when reforming, creating a thin "skirt" of lead around the crimp area if you set the depth of the die too deep. Easy to do as the mechanical advantage of presses rob you of the "feel" on doing too much, or not enough for that matter.

With the Paco tool, you can do that also but much harder to do if you follow the instructions even loosely. Gotta work at it.

When you resize the bullets you do change the density of them and to a very small degree how hard they are. Virtually immeasurable without lab equipment as are the results relative to pressure curves, chamber pressure and muzzle velocity, Insignificant from a practical standpoint.

Since then, 2010, the folks that contributed, and a few other shooting buddies that bought resizing dies have resized about 75,000 rounds which included, and still does, actual results on small game. Between us we have over 700 acres to hunt in anytime we want and a lot of small game including squirrels and rabbits.

Looking at the various nose shapes ala:



The best results, which is not in the least bit surprising for accuracy were the flat metplat or semi-wadcutters. (Far right) That nose shape has proven itself over hundreds of years for accuracy.

The best results from actual hunting were that nose shape for thicker skinned game including turtles or game that you want to preserve as much meat as you can, were again the flat metplat or semi-wadcutters.

Penetration was good even on armadillo's and a coyote or two, albeit that was at close range, like 30 yards.

The best results, if you want expansion, were the cupped nose (center). Expansion like on squirrels with a central mass hit often left only "stew pot" meat left.

Good for stuff like crows or black birds etc. if you just want to kill em.

Expansion of "store bought" hollow points was pretty effective if you wanted more "filets of squirrels" and were taking body shots but we kinda shy away from those unless the hollow point store bought rounds are priced attractively enough for use to buy them.

Regardless of what tooling you chose, you will not make target ammo from bulk and will not increase the accuracy of target ammo. What you can do though is get close with the bulk stuff which gives you a lot cheaper ammo to practice and hunt with.

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 08-01-2017 at 02:31 AM.
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  #11  
Old 06-03-2017, 09:55 AM
dryholer
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Thank you Noremf, very helpful info,To explain a little further, I dont shoot alot of groups,enough to keep my skill set somwhat where i want it to be, after all it is a perishable skill set, I AM interested in terminal damage results an wound channels, growing up I used what ever ammo was availible, RN,HP it didnt make a diff to me, (but as a child i played childerens game), its been said if you shoot heads wat diff is there? to which i say WORLDS,, the difference is gargantuan,If you are a student of the game! I hunt! I hunt alot! I do take only head shots,will NOT shoot into the body, an am pretty good at it,not as good as some here but ahead of the curve, However, you can never be too good to improve your game, skills or tools , presicion is everything of course,in both worlds its the measuring stick, however terminal damage is what im after,yall dont get me wrong, I shoot 3/8" at 50yds with several diff rifles an several diff ammo, I can put it where it should be but when it gets there id like better results than what is common place, Thanx again noremf, your posts and explainations are great
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Old 06-04-2017, 07:30 AM
Bill Hoffman

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Solids cannot be compressed. Basic law of physics.
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