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  #1  
Old 09-17-2021, 09:25 AM
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Model 41 Failure to Eject Commentary



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Took the Model 41 (with red dot) to the range yesterday. It grouped as well as my old eyes and body would allow. But in 60 rounds of several year old CCI Std VEL ammo, I had 3 failures to eject resulting in a jam. Once home I inspected the extractor. For those unknowing, the extractorís job in a blowback operated 22 gun is NOT to extract a fired case but to hold the empty case firmly against the slide breech face so the ejector can kick that empty out of the gun. So a failure to eject might be a failure of the extractor.

The inspection revealed that the claw shape of the extractor did not meet the correct shape. The extractor is supposed to only touch the case at the exact junction of the case rim and the case body. This one did not have the correct sharp pointed claw and was riding on the rim rather than as a single point of contact on the exact junction of the rim and case body. This could be fixed with a file after removing the extractor from the slide. But I thought maybe the Volquartsen Exact Edge Extractor might offer a drop in alternative.

Seems like the Volquartsen Exact Edge Extractor for the Model 41 is discontinued and sold out everywhere. Some sold out pages listed their last price at twice the MSRP for the part when Volquarten had them ($28 vs $12). Donít you just love opportunists like this!

So do I fix mine or call such a low failure rate acceptable? Havenít decided yet. My guns are shot for fun not competition so 100% reliability is not mandatory. And working on my guns gets harder with my degenerating eyesight. What a shame a gun as expensive as the Model 41 suffers from a poorly designed extractor! In S&Wís defense the extractor passes the shake test (live round on the breech face of the removed slide and the slide gently shaken with the round staying on the slide breech face).

LDBennett
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  #2  
Old 09-17-2021, 10:51 AM
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I'd fix it or try to have it fixed just on general principle LD. For me too many bad memories of malfunctions in timed competition to leave something like that unattended.

Plus you know it's going to bug you

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Old 09-17-2021, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poochie View Post
there is a replacement on ebay right now for $10.23 or a Volquartsen Exact Edge Extractor for $15.95 If you can repair your original go for it, but it would be nice to have a spare just in case your can't fix it.
How about a link because when I search there I see none for a Model 41. I may have to just fix mine?

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Old 09-17-2021, 01:42 PM
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Here you go LD https://www.ebay.com/itm/36353739249...8AAOSwD75hOkeh

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Old 09-17-2021, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDBennett View Post
Took the Model 41 (with red dot) to the range yesterday. It grouped as well as my old eyes and body would allow. But in 60 rounds of several year old CCI Std VEL ammo, I had 3 failures to eject resulting in a jam. Once home I inspected the extractor. For those unknowing, the extractorís job in a blowback operated 22 gun is NOT to extract a fired case but to hold the empty case firmly against the slide breech face so the ejector can kick that empty out of the gun. So a failure to eject might be a failure of the extractor.

The inspection revealed that the claw shape of the extractor did not meet the correct shape. The extractor is supposed to only touch the case at the exact junction of the case rim and the case body. This one did not have the correct sharp pointed claw and was riding on the rim rather than as a single point of contact on the exact junction of the rim and case body. This could be fixed with a file after removing the extractor from the slide. But I thought maybe the Volquartsen Exact Edge Extractor might offer a drop in alternative.

Seems like the Volquartsen Exact Edge Extractor for the Model 41 is discontinued and sold out everywhere. Some sold out pages listed their last price at twice the MSRP for the part when Volquarten had them ($28 vs $12). Donít you just love opportunists like this!

So do I fix mine or call such a low failure rate acceptable? Havenít decided yet. My guns are shot for fun not competition so 100% reliability is not mandatory. And working on my guns gets harder with my degenerating eyesight. What a shame a gun as expensive as the Model 41 suffers from a poorly designed extractor! In S&Wís defense the extractor passes the shake test (live round on the breech face of the removed slide and the slide gently shaken with the round staying on the slide breech face).

LDBennett
Is your M41 a new one? If so, you may just need to put a few dozen rounds downrange to straighten it out. I bought a new M41 earlier this year and had a similar problem with it. I managed to buy a new Volquartsen Exact Edge extractor and installed it. It didn't make a nickles worth of difference. I also had a problem with the magazine latch (the mags wouldn't lock in place) after a relatively few rounds so I returned it to S&W. I got it back in just over a week. Great service! They had replaced the mag latch and--the VQ extractor! I took it to the range and it was better. The mag latch worked just fine and the FTE's were greatly reduced. After a hundred rounds or so they went away completely.

I'm not much of a pistol shooter any more so I really haven't fired it a whole lot, but so far everything seems fine. Here's a list of some of the things I've learned:

1. The gun is ammo-sensitive. It runs great with CCI, both Minimags and SV.

2. It doesn't much like some older Aguila SV I've had on hand for some years. Lotsa FTE's out of the box.

3. I tried several other ammo brands and got mixed results. They were just a mixed bag of small lots I had laying around, so I didn't get to try a bunch of any of them. This was during the peak of the ammo crunch.

4. If I put a drop of oil on top of the 5th and 10th rounds loaded, even the elderly Aguila runs well. I had already tried wiping the ammo down as recommended by Larry Potterfield of Midway USA, but that didn't help at all.

So maybe all your gun needs is a little breaking in (assuming it's new). If not, PM me your mailing address and I'll send you my VQ extractor, no charge. It didn't help me but maybe it'll work for you.
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Old 09-18-2021, 08:19 AM
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So, this gun was bought new in the early 1990's and is the reduced polish finish with laser etched serial numbers version. I have many guns and rotate through them for range sessions. This gun may have a thousand rounds through it and is well broken in. This range trip I noticed the extractor problem which I may or may not fix. I thought a drop-in Volquartsen Exact Edge extractor might be an easy fix but they are discontinued and out of stock everywhere.

I have no need for a OEM S&W extractor as the one in the gun is not broken. I did want the Volquartsen Exact Edge one as the pictures show the claw to be shaped correctly, unlike the claw on the OEM S&W one. Whether it can be fitted correctly, only an installation in the gun would reveal that.

I am about to clean the gun and I will concentrate on the action of the extractor, the cleanliness of the chamber, and the cleanliness of the slot on the breech face for the extractor when the slide is closed. I do know the ejector can hold a loaded round to the slide breech face (under a mild shaking) but it is not held tightly enough to be totally reliable, in my opinion. When the claw rests on the rim (a sloping surface) instead of a single point at the junction of the rim and case body, the extractor can fall off the case and drop the case before the ejector can kick it out of the gun. Note this fitment is for most rimfire cartridges and not centerfire cases.

Thanks all for the link. And if I screw up mine, I may be back to pickup the S&W one.

LDBennett
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Old 09-18-2021, 08:57 AM
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Sometimes Volquartsen does another run of parts not listed on their site.
I would call their service dept and ask them if they're gonna make more model 41 extractors.
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Old 09-18-2021, 09:15 AM
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'LD, since the S&W model 41 is still in production, what's stopping you from contacting S&W's Customer Service and requesting a replacement?

(USA) 1-800-331-0852 - Mon-Fri 8:00AM-5:00PM Eastern Time

*edited to add - sorry, didn't see your comment above about not wanting an OEM replacement.
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Old 09-18-2021, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Sagittarius View Post
Sometimes Volquartsen does another run of parts not listed on their site.
I would call their service dept and ask them if they're gonna make more model 41 extractors.
I called Volquartsen on Wednesday to inquire about an extractor. A nice young lady told me that they don't have any in stock, and that she would inquire as to when/if they planned to manufacture more of them. She said that if they had plans to make more she would call me back and proceeded to take my phone number.

She didn't call back.
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Old 09-18-2021, 03:34 PM
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Volquartsen did a run of 41 extractors about a year or so ago after discontinuing them, I got the info here and picked one up.

A few more inquiries and theyíll probably do another run.
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Old 09-18-2021, 03:39 PM
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Model 41 Failure to Eject Commentary

Quote:
Originally Posted by LDBennett View Post

But in 60 rounds of several year old CCI Std VEL ammo, I had 3 failures to eject resulting in a jam.

So do I fix mine or call such a low failure rate acceptable? Havenít decided yet. My guns are shot for fun not competition so 100% reliability is not mandatory.

LDBennett
LDBennett,

Is it possible that the shape of the extractor's claw is not as bad as it may appear to be? Continue to shoot your Model 41 "as-is". Keep a record of it's reliability for a longer round count. If the problem persists, tuning and/or replacing the extractor may then be called for.

Your ammunition could be causing the trouble. Just yesterday, I was shooting my High Standard Victor. Out of the 60 rounds of CCI Standard Velocity fired, there was a total of five failures to extract and eject. They occurred on a random basis. In each instance, the spent empty cases were re-chambered right after the live rounds were fired. The slide did travel rearward enough so as to cock the hammer. And, the bullets did hit the target that was 25 yards downrange. Apparently, some of those cartridges had powder charges that were slightly out of specification. Do you have a different lot of CCI to try using in your pistol?
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Old 09-19-2021, 08:40 AM
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The current plan is to shoot it as is, but clean the chamber better. That's for a few reasons.

The failures were minimal and not all the time. The S&W extractor is shaped nearly right but the claw is resting lightly on the rim. The retention of the case to the slide breech face is due to the spring force of the extractor jamming the case to the breech face of the slide and not due to the claw point. The rim that the extractor is resting on is a angled surface which is easy for the extractor to slip off of. A sharp claw point position at the exact intersection of the rim and case body is a better retention method, accepted by trained gunsmiths everywhere. Removal of the extractor requires removal of the breech block which requires removal of the breech block pin. That pin is rolled over and gets deformed by removal and replacement, which could be a bit ugly when done. The failure rate is not high enough to make the gun ugly, especially when the gun is about 90% reliable now and could get better with the chamber cleaning (my inspection of the chamber revealed that it almost fails the plop test).

I don't need or want just another S&W extractor. I wanted the Volquartsen one as it seems to be correctly shaped. Once the OEM one is out of the slide, I could modify it to be correct. But the above points back up my decision to do nothing except to clean the chamber and pass the plop test.

To be clear, I do understand how these guns work. After retiring from engineering, I entertained the idea of training to be a gunsmith. I liked retirement too much so I just continued studying on my own over the last 35 years. I am no gunsmith but I am well up on most things gun related, operational in nature. I appreciate the help offered by posters because it may help others to learn about their guns.

As for the ammo, it is CCI SV, purchased in a large quantity about 3 or 4 years ago. It operates flawlessly in several other 22LR target pistols. I highly doubt it is the problem.

I started this thread for conversational reasons, not to search for answers. I wanted to highlight the fact that modern gun usually do not have correctly fitted extractors, even when they cost an arm and a leg!

Thanks fo all the comments. I hope it helps others here.

LDBennett
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Old 09-19-2021, 09:24 AM
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LD, I concur with the action that you are planning on taking. The good thing is, I know that you have plenty of high quality rimfire target pistols in your possession and that you will not be hampered in enjoying some target shooting when you feel the urge.
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Old 09-19-2021, 01:03 PM
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It's not always about the extractor. The other half of that system is the ejector and that is the single weakest component in the gun. Check side play. If there's too much side play in the ejector, it doesn't get a good hit on the case. Check the length, if it's a tad too long it doesn't get a good hit on the case. FTEs are probably more related to ejector problems than extractor problems.
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Old 09-19-2021, 01:54 PM
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The key to reliable ejection is the extractor holding onto the empty case as the gas pressure "blows" the empty case out of the chamber. On its path out of the gun, the empty case traverses through the area behind the chamber which earlier supported it. If the extractor drops the case it falls onto the new round coming up out of the magazine.....JAM!

Very few modern guns I have inspected have the extractor shaped correctly. What is correct? The claw of the extractor is the only thing on the extractor that should touch the case during extraction/ejection. That extractor pointed claw should only touch the case at the exact junction of the rim and the case body and nowhere else. If the extractor is just jammed against the case body or the claw is only on the rim, the chances that the extractor will loose grip are increased.

If the extractor (rarely adjusted correctly on modern 22 rimfire guns) is OK then a failure to eject might be the ejector. Yes, the gun is a system and it takes more than a perfect extractor for the gun to operate correctly and reliably. But, based on my experience with my many guns that I have worked on myself, a correctly adjusted 22 rimfire extractor is a key element to reliable ejection.

This gun is relatively new (little use in 30 years of ownership), is cleaned after every range trip, and shows no signs of any wear. The chances that the ejector is loose or broken are minimal, I would think. But an inspection reveals no looseness and the bluing on the ejection working end of the ejector is still there with no signs of wear. I doubt in this case the ejector is at fault. But another gun might have a faulty ejector... just not this gun.

Don't underestimate the importance of a correctly shaped extractor when chasing 22 rimfire ejection problems. Anyway that is my opinion and yours may vary.

LDBennett
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