Failure in Marketplace of HM2 - Page 3 - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > >

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 03-23-2016, 03:40 PM
EdinMd

Join Date: 
May 2003
Posts: 
48
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)


Log in to see fewer ads
Quote:
Originally Posted by preventec47 View Post
As I recall during the first few years the HM2 ammo was the same price per round
as the 22 mag ammo so there is where the comparison is.
The trajectory differences is not so great between the two and the killing power
of the 22 mag is way way more than the HM2

At short ranges at least if you want to limit meat destruction just use std velocity
22 LR or 22 shorts etc.

The category not served by 22 but is filled with the HM2 would be the longer distance shot with minimum meat destruction

NO... I just think the ammo mfgrs got greedy and were trying to quadruple their
profit margin on ammo with the HM2 and they killed the whole market. Demand
so low for guns the mfgr stopped making them for the most part.

IF they could have sold HM2 ammo for same as 22LR there would still be lots of
HM2 guns available.... maybe even more than 22LR as it was a big improvement at least in accuracy
17HM2 costs more to manufacture:
as was pointed out before it uses a jacketed bullet and not a swaged one ( this adds more steps and cost to make).

The HM2 uses Stinger cases and these are not made by the billion like regular .22lr; plus the shoulder has to be formed (more work and tooling)

There are not millions and millions of 17HM2 firearms in circulation like .22 lr so not as much 17HM2 is sold to begin with (move more product and it can be sold for less).

Timing was bad; the recession started not to long after it was introduced and a lot of disposable income dried up.


Just my thoughts
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04-02-2016, 02:29 PM
moorepower
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Posts: 
1,458
TPC Rating: 
100% (8)
Eley dumped how many million rounds for less than the cost of the bullet. HM2 rifles were being sold below cost. Possibly we could get the Chinese to pirate the ammo for less than the cost of American ammo, so we would not have to worry about American compinies "gouging" us??? Hornady makes many times more HMR than HM2 so from a financial ppoint it really makes no sense in them even producing it, "loaded by CCI". Try looking up .17 reloading components and tell me how much they are gouging us on the ammo. The number 1 reason it "failed" is because people did not buy it! Most that have a HMR don't see the point. It was sold as a hunting round and people were upset that it was not priced at or below blasting ammo. The real death blow was that it would not work in a 10/22, and it was never designed to work in a blowback semi auto. A bunch of guns got recalled and bought back, the bolt actions did not sell. Eley, Remington, Marlin, Ruger, TC and many others took a big loss. I would be willing to wager that the ONLY reason that Hornady keeps offering it is to service those who have guns, not because they are "getting rich" off of it. I would also bet that is the lowest margin product they offer. There is a reason that CCI, Eley, Remington and others don't want to mess with it. Low sales, bad track record. You can't make and sell ultra low volume products at a fire sale price when they are taking away from a high volume profitable line. FYI I own a marlin 917 VSS or whatever the letter designation is, and a crap load of ammo, I bought when it got dumped, so I am not just a hater. If you own a gun and can't get the ammo its an ammo shortage/ high demand item/ success/ if you lost millions on it, it is a failure.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-02-2016, 07:58 PM
Glass37
US Army Veteran

Join Date: 
Mar 2011
Location: 
Southern lower MI
Posts: 
1,261
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
How was it a big loss for bolt rifle manufacturers when it was just put a 17m2 chambered barrel on a 22 action. The 17HMR was just as bad in a semi auto as the 17m2 was. If the 17m2 had been marketed first, woulda been a different ballgame.
Reply With Quote
 
  #34  
Old 04-02-2016, 08:56 PM
preventec47

Join Date: 
Jan 2007
Location: 
Atlanta, GA
Posts: 
311
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
This is the first I have heard of Eley dumping HM2 rounds cheaply. When did
this happen and how much were they selling for ? I see no reason
why they would sell at a loss so they more than likely were selling at
a fair reasonable price and had they continued to do so we would still
be seeing a lot of the ammo available.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-03-2016, 06:20 AM
ThunderStick's Avatar
ThunderStick
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2005
Location: 
West Tennessee
Posts: 
1,599
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
The HM2 was my go to tree squirrel round until I got suppressors for my 22lr. If y'all will recall the HM2 WAS marketed as the ultimate semi auto rimfire round. Most of the failure in the semi auto guns was shooters that followed the ole"you never have to clean a 22"routine, along with guns that would fire a little out of battery when carbon built up on the chamber shoulder! Then you had all these 17 HMR guns sold that hunters where finding too hot for small edible game that where unwilling to buy "another 17". I had two heavy HM2 guns that I have sold, so I'm out, although I believe in the HM2 as an almost ultimate small game round. As far as price goes? I shoot match grade 22 ammo that coast as much as HM2.

My personal opinion is that a round based on the ID if the 22lr cartridge using a jacketed bullet "Ala the 22mag"would have been a better round than the HM2, and much easier in a semi auto. If CZ was still making the standard barrel 452 in HM2 I'd still have one in my stable.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04-03-2016, 10:03 AM
preventec47

Join Date: 
Jan 2007
Location: 
Atlanta, GA
Posts: 
311
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
How many of you would agree with the following statement as I cannot
exactly remember the specifics. I think the HM2 when it came out
was about the same price as 22 mag ammo. And then the HMR ammo
was another rung up the ladder in pricing.

So price wise.... essentially the HM2 was competing with the 22mag
and not the 22LR in the market. The performance differences between
those two are significantly less than when comparing HM2 with 22LR.

In fact, at all ranges the 22mag is much more lethal.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 04-03-2016, 12:28 PM
moorepower
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Posts: 
1,458
TPC Rating: 
100% (8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glass37 View Post
How was it a big loss for bolt rifle manufacturers when it was just put a 17m2 chambered barrel on a 22 action. The 17HMR was just as bad in a semi auto as the 17m2 was. If the 17m2 had been marketed first, woulda been a different ballgame.
Because they could not sell them. There were HM rifles selling for less than .22lr's.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04-03-2016, 12:34 PM
moorepower
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Posts: 
1,458
TPC Rating: 
100% (8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by preventec47 View Post
This is the first I have heard of Eley dumping HM2 rounds cheaply. When did
this happen and how much were they selling for ? I see no reason
why they would sell at a loss so they more than likely were selling at
a fair reasonable price and had they continued to do so we would still
be seeing a lot of the ammo available.
Where have you been??? I bought 4k rounds for around $2 a box. At the time I mentioned this to a friend at Hornady and he told me they could not produce the bullets for the round for that, so yes they took a huge loss. Hornady thought it would be a huge seller, and made it so it would fit any bolt action platform with a barrel change. I was not intended for semi autos, but the mfgrs. though they could make it work, and they could not. Again, go to any site that sells reloading components and you will see what the bullets alone cost. If it was profitable, it would sell, and you would see many makers producing it. FYI bullets alone sell for around .16 each, and Hornady is about the cheapest brand of bullet. A swaged .22 lr rile bullets takes about 2 steps to make it.

Last edited by moorepower; 04-03-2016 at 12:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04-03-2016, 01:49 PM
SWUtah
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Mar 2015
Location: 
SW Utah
Posts: 
637
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
supply & demand

There is a very active market for HM2 ammo, and all the HM2 ammo Hornady contracts CCI to produce for the Hornady label sells out very quickly. I hope it continues this way. I believe that Hornady is making a reasonable profit on it. Dealers who are selling it fairly are in the $8-$9/box range and I believe they're making a reasonable profit, also. As the old Eley ammo gets shot up or priced so high that no one will buy it, the market for new Hornady will only get better.

It's a great small game, varmint, and target round, and perhaps if the ammo supply continues or even improves, the market for new 17HM2 firearms could recover. Lilja has HM2 barrels for Ruger 77s, CZ 455s and Sako P94S Finnfires & Quads. There are still a (very) few factory Sako Quad HM2 barrels available in the market. Anschutz 1502s, 1702s, 2013s, and various older rifles including Savage, Marlin, etc. are actively traded in the marketplace. I have a 1502 HM2, purchased as 'new old stock'.

My newest rimfire rifle is a Browning T-Bolt maple stock 22LR., which weighs in at under 7 lbs with scope. If it were available, I wouldn't hesitate to buy the same rifle in Mach II.

Best thing we can do is to contact Hornady customer support and thank them for the recent production and ask for more and bigger runs.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 04-03-2016, 05:25 PM
Markbo
NRA Member - Click Here To Join! UotM

Join Date: 
Mar 2003
Location: 
Houston
Posts: 
10,687
TPC Rating: 
100% (8)
I never claim to know everything, but I know a few things as fact. Like:

1. I NEVER saw Eley HM2 for anything close to $2/box and I havent been gone anywhere.
2. My lone HMR & my personally built HM2s (all semi autos) are 100% reliable and safe. I have never had an out of battery event or even a malfunction that I can remember
3. I am still - and will remain - an HM2 fan. It is a fantastic small game round & like the HMR is remarkably accurate.
4. As ammo becomes available (& I believe it will this year) I will continue to buy it up if for no other reason than to avoid the next shortage.

I was lucky in that I had many cases of .22 ammo so the last 2 years have not been a burden on me, though i ran precariously low on HM2. Wont get caught again
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 04-04-2016, 11:14 AM
moorepower
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Posts: 
1,458
TPC Rating: 
100% (8)
1.It was around $2 a box. I can't help it if people did not know it, were not getting the sale fliers....
2. I am glad your guns have not blown up....yet. I don't know of any major mfgr. that did not recall all it's semi auto HM2's for blow up issues/liability.
3. The reason I bought the guns, H&R handi and Marlin 917, is because I bought 4k rounds of Eley for pennies over $2 a box and another 1k rounds of Hornady for about the same price at Cabelas when they were unloading it. They had a whole display shelf full of it, and I could not resist. That is the day I bought the H&R.
4. I like the round, but for the purpose I bought it, pest birds and gophers, I mostly use a .25 Marauder now. I don't see many gophers where I am at anymore and I live in a more populated area than I did, when I bought it. If I had one growing up, I would have tried to burn out the barrel, with a target rich environment, but sadly I don't have the time and access to such land anymore.
5. I AM NOT ANTI HM2!!!!!!!! I am just amazed how the history of it has been rewritten. It was possibly the most hyped round introduced. Every gun rag had features and most had covers on it. It was marketed as a cheaper round than the HMR with a PREMIUUM hunting bullet, and too many folks thought the HMR a better choice/ were not willing to pay for much more than .22lr price. I do understand it, because when I was growing up, I could not justify the price of a .22WMR because it was too expensive to shoot alot for ME.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 04-04-2016, 11:43 AM
Oldman11

Join Date: 
Mar 2015
Posts: 
44
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I also bought 4000 Remington .17 HM2 for a little over $2.00 a box of 50. I need my butt kicked for not buying more. In my book the .17 hm2 is the best RimFire next to the.22 that's ever been made. Now we need to get it back in production.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 04-04-2016, 02:25 PM
Glass37
US Army Veteran

Join Date: 
Mar 2011
Location: 
Southern lower MI
Posts: 
1,261
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
There were HM rifles selling for less than .22lr's. Then I believe a better term would be low profit margin, not loss.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 04-06-2016, 04:19 PM
moorepower
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Posts: 
1,458
TPC Rating: 
100% (8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glass37 View Post
There were HM rifles selling for less than .22lr's. Then I believe a better term would be low profit margin, not loss.

A .17 barrel is quite a bit more costly to make. They were dumping them at a loss. If you don't care to believe their is a cost in business, I can't help you. Folks unlike every thing else we buy, we can't just wait till American companies go out of business and hope China starts to make them, or we will not have access to guns and ammo.

Last edited by moorepower; 04-06-2016 at 04:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 04-06-2016, 06:21 PM
Aeroeng's Avatar
Aeroeng
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2008
Location: 
Lousiville, KY
Posts: 
305
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
My personal opinion has to do with timing. Had the HM2 come out before the HMR, things may be different. HM2 came out after the market was saturated with the HMR. I know i would have thought long and hard about buying an HMR when it offers only a slight increase in velocity over the HM2. 400fps may be important to some people, but not me. Don't get me wrong, I've taken more critters with the HMR than the HM2. I just think it would be more popular had it hit the market first.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:29 PM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x