Model 69A-Factory Drilled and Tapped Barrel? - Page 2 - RimfireCentral.com Forums

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  #16  
Old 10-29-2010, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22AGS View Post
From the front of receiver where the bevel touches the barrel:

The distance to the center of the closest hole is 0.345".
Center to Center on the two rear holes is 0.864".
Center to Center between the forward rear hole and rearward front hole is 6.5".
CtC on the two front holes is .572".
CtC on the outermost holes is 7 29/32".
Measured another way, the distance out from that beveled edge on the front of the receiver to the center of each hole runs like this:
11/32", 1 6/32", 7 22/32", 8 8/32".

With the stock resting upside down on a flat surface, the maximum drop at the toe is 6 1/2". Drop at heel is 1 3/4".
The Center to Center between the two sling swivels is 25".

And unfortunately, there is NO two-digit year stamp on the barrel.
22AGS, thanks for taking the time to measure! Here is what I can tell you based upon your supplied dimensions;

The Winchester hole spacing for the rear block should be .860" (instead of .864") and the front block hole spacing should be .560" (instead of .572").

Hopefully your measurements are off slightly and the holes actually match the Winchester dimensions.

The stock dimensions are an exact match for the Winchester 69 Target stock. The comb drop on the open sight 69 is 1 9/16", the drop on the peep sight version is 1 5/8" and the Target stock is 1 3/4". The sling swivel ctc distance on the Target stocks is approximately 25".

So, congratulations! You officially have a 69 Target stock!

Thanks again for being a good sport and taking the measurements. I think a 12” digital caliper should be on your Christmas wish list

Regards,

Last edited by JWA; 03-05-2014 at 03:49 AM.
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  #17  
Old 10-29-2010, 09:40 PM
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This is great news to me. I appreciate your encouragement. And I probably should have said, ".864" plus or minus 1/2".
Speaking as a total non-precisionist, the fact that I got within .004" of your specs on the one hole is a minor miracle and I should get a medal.

As to the other, front, hole, well both scope blocks fit perfectly over the holes so yeah I probably fudged it up a bit. I do wish the barrel had a date of manufacture, sure would help. Maybe when dewald or one of the other guys with a carbon copy of this gun look around, theirs will have a date.

No doubt that if we get together anytime soon down here this gun will be the main topic of gun conversation on my end. Right now it is completely taken down on my bench, scope and blocks awaiting a return to their perch. Hope to hear from these other guys this weekend.

Again, thanks JWA, we seem to be getting closer to officially calling this gun factory, and my persistence may be paying off at last. There are several anonymous pals of mine also interested in authenticating the pedigree, as to a man they all have said they believed the gun was right.

Now if only we could figure out how many were actually made. This is the type of missing data that keep would-be gun authors up at night in a cold sweat.

Last edited by 22AGS; 10-29-2010 at 09:45 PM.
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  #18  
Old 10-29-2010, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22AGS View Post
I do wish the barrel had a date of manufacture, sure would help. Maybe when dewald or one of the other guys with a carbon copy of this gun look around, theirs will have a date.
AGS, this is a case where you should be glad the barrel does not have a date. Your 69 was built during the era in which it probably should have a barrel date IF it was a "regular" 69A. But since yours has a 69 Target/Match stock and 69 Match front sight it would follow that other details might be similar to a Match rifle also. I own eleven 69 Match rifles (2 in the original boxes) and NONE of them have a barrel date stamped on the underside. I have never taken a poll but I believe the 69 Match barrels (.22 LR only) were not dated even though dates were placed on the normal production barrels during the same period. The fact your mystery rifle barrel is not dated when it should have been speaks more about its authenticity than additional enigma.

I have to agree with the other folks that you have had examine your rifle in that it appears to be factory correct, even though there is little/no supporting information.

Also, as a tip, one of the ways to spot a 69 Match stock in the field is to sight down the comb. A standard 69A stock has a straight comb but the 69 Target/Match stock comb angles downward for the last 2 1/2". Most, but not all, Match stocks have that droop of the comb and that is where the additional overall comb drop dimension is achieved. I would have told you that earlier but I wanted you to independently verify the 1 ” dimension with no coaching or leading information from me to taint your measurement.

Best Regards,

Last edited by JWA; 11-21-2010 at 06:17 AM.
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  #19  
Old 10-30-2010, 06:47 AM
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So you guys are saying that there are Match rifles out there that are indeed chambered for Short, Long and Long Rifle and not just Long Rifles's only? I thought the true Target's and Match rifles were Long Rifle only. Interesting thread that's for sure. Keep it up. RRM Is your rifle a six goove?
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  #20  
Old 10-30-2010, 06:50 AM
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Who IS this guy? This is the kind of information that is SO valuable and vital to know. I would never have found this stuff out. Glad you signed on JWA, and maybe you should start on a book--- pronto! We need this knowledge! Thanks so much.

rrm, good question there. I'll look again, but believe my barrel is four l&g not six. The plot thickens.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The barrel is four lands and grooves. Here are some photos in dim light of the stock. I don't think this comb drops off suddenly but it is not a straight line. When you hold the comb up to a bright light, you can see small 'ripples' in the top line.



Last edited by 22AGS; 10-30-2010 at 07:16 AM.
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  #21  
Old 10-30-2010, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Rod Mac View Post
So you guys are saying that there are Match rifles out there that are indeed chambered for Short, Long and Long Rifle and not just Long Rifles's only? I thought the true Target's and Match rifles were Long Rifle only. Interesting thread that's for sure. Keep it up. RRM Is your rifle a six goove?
Hi Rat Rod Mac,

No, I did not mean to say there are Match rifles with S, L and LR barrels. I apologize if I gave that impression. 22AGS's rifle is not a Match rifle by the true definition but does have a Target/Match rifle stock and front sight. Other aspects of his rifle are consistent with a normal production 69A such as the barrel and 80A rear sight. The blending of these components, the factory style scope block holes and spread proofmarks are what makes his rifle unique. Especially since they appear to be a factory iteration. I have seen a number of D&T'd 69 rifles with crisp, factory style holes and displaced proofmarks over the years but never one with the Target/Match features that AGS rifle exhibits.

Regards,

Last edited by JWA; 11-21-2010 at 06:18 AM.
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  #22  
Old 10-30-2010, 09:52 AM
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Here are some side-by-side pictures illustrating the differences in the comb drop and droop between the standard 69 open sight model and the 69 Match model. As I mentioned previously, the comb drop for the various models is;

69 Open Sight (G6901R) is 1 9/16”
69 Peep Sight (G6902R) is 1 5/8”
69 Match (G6941R) is 1 3/4"

Please keep in mind that as with all Winchester production there was a certain amount of variation due to sanding and final finish so each stock will have some deviations but the above dimensions are the general rule. Also be advised that Winchester produced a variety of anomalies; for instance, I have a 69 Match with a standard straight comb stock and 22AGS has a 69 peep model with a Target/Match stock.

Hope this helps.

Regards,




Last edited by JWA; 11-21-2010 at 06:19 AM.
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  #23  
Old 10-31-2010, 07:54 AM
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JWA, thank you very much for the clarification. So basically what we have here is a factory mismatch, but it is factory, so that makes it ok and desirable. Well like we all know, never say never when it comes to Winchester. 22AGS you're right, we somehow have to get JWA to write a book. WOW. This guy is a store house of information and I want the first autographed copy. You guys are great keep it up. RRM
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  #24  
Old 10-31-2010, 09:22 AM
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RRM, Thanks for the kind words. Books are a LOT of work and I don't think there are enough of us Winchester .22 geeks to ever get it to the best seller list. One of these days maybe......

Regards,
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  #25  
Old 10-31-2010, 09:29 AM
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I forgot to mention that one of the clues that point to a Winchester factory assembly is that the Target or Match stock the rifle is wearing is inletted for the 80A rear sight (appears to be original). The 69 Match stock as supplied on 69 Match rifles were all inletted for the Lyman 57E/57EW which is a different size cut-out. So this stock was originally intended and installed on this hybrid rifle.

Regards,

Last edited by JWA; 11-21-2010 at 06:20 AM.
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  #26  
Old 10-31-2010, 09:34 AM
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I'm enjoying myself on this thread, naturally! Am going to take some more detail pictures today on these points you've been making JWA.

And dewald where are you with that same gun?
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  #27  
Old 10-31-2010, 10:55 AM
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The straight edge sits flat for the first four inches then there is a gradual drop towards the heel.


This is that picture that was so funny because I couldn't explain that mystery screw head in the center of the bedding area that turned out to be just a 'reflection impression' from the real screw. I just noticed that little chip out of the wood at the front of the sight inletting.

Last edited by 22AGS; 10-31-2010 at 10:58 AM.
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  #28  
Old 10-31-2010, 12:42 PM
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For comparison, here is the sight inletting on a stock from a 69 Match rifle.

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  #29  
Old 10-31-2010, 12:55 PM
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....and I see the same screw shadow in your inletting as well
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  #30  
Old 10-31-2010, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22AGS View Post
....and I see the same screw shadow in your inletting as well
Yes, I have found it in several of my 69's now. When you first posted about the screw I checked several 69's that I had out and they didn't have the imprint but when I was cleaning a 69 Match I found the mark (and the cause). Now I see the mark all the time (I refer to it in my head as the "22AGS" mark). Coincidently or not, most of my 69 Match rifle stocks have the mark but most of my "regular" 69 stocks do not. I don't know if that is significant or just coincidental but I never noticed the trigger screw impression until you pointed it out.

Regards,
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