Model 69A-Factory Drilled and Tapped Barrel? - RimfireCentral.com Forums

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Old 10-29-2010, 08:52 AM
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Model 69A-Factory Drilled and Tapped Barrel?



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Edit Note: November 6, 2010. Herewith is another one of those cases in which I ask an innocent question and it kinda snowballs into something else. This thread, particularly later in the pages, contains a wealth of information on the differences between the 69A Match, the true Target vs the regular or "standard" peep sight gun, and the Junior Target Shooter Special aka JTSS. I hope it serves as a reference work for you collectors, and for me I just want my gun certified factory. As of today, I am 100% certain it is, we have documentation on another two identical examples from other parts of the country and hear tell of a fourth that was sold off. But it would be nice if someone would come forward with a catalog listing for the gun.
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Edit Note: February 1, 2014 This thread now has an almost nostalgic delight, at least for me. I remember being alone in the wilderness, so to speak , when I first put this out there. With the help of so many of you guys, particularly JWA, Flysalot, HectorFuego, Dewald, and OldMan58, my original question has now been thoroughly answered to my satisfaction. Thanks guys!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edit Note: September 28, 2014. As of now, we have all the documentation needed to state with certainty and proofs that this rifle is indeed a factory issue, made for less than one year (and possibly only 6 months), just prior to the United States' entry into WWII. The number we have located approaches twenty, and JWA also discovered an even rarer upgrade in the form of a Match version, one of which, a minty example, he has procured. YEE HA.
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Guys,
Over the past few years I have had several of you mention or show pictures of a rifle similar to one I own that has always been something of a mystery. The gun is an early 69A with four holes drilled and tapped into the barrel. The proof mark is moved further forward on the rear of the barrel, which leads me to believe it's factory, as the regular proof mark location would have seen the mark destroyed by this last hole. Sling swivels are installed, the front sight is a 93A 'shark fin' style, and there is a straight bolt and smooth trigger. The stock is a beefy target style, larger than would be normal for a 'sporter' or field gun. Not shown is the original 80A rear peep sight, which I removed during scope installation. The rifle did come with a single shot adaptor clip, but this isn't necessarily proof the clip came with the gun originally.
If you do have such a rifle, I would appreciate an update with pictures if possible. There is an important reason I am doing this now. I want to see what we have, and again make a stab at certifying the type as an original factory issue. Thanks!
Here are the pictures of mine. The scope and blocks were added by me at a later date.






Note the spelled out caliber designation, a pre-WWII feature. After the war it became "S. L. or L.R."





Last edited by 22AGS; 12-30-2014 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 10-29-2010, 09:18 AM
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Great looking rifle AGS! I think you have a real treasure there

While we are on the subject, I would like to ask anyone with a 69 dual sight or 697 to measure the distance of their factory scope mounting block screws (all 4) from the front face of the receiver. I would like to find out if there was a difference in the mounting block positions for the 5 power and 2 3/4 power scopes and/or a variation of location throughout production.

Thanks in advance for the time and effort!

Regards,

Last edited by JWA; 10-29-2010 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 10-29-2010, 09:24 AM
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Is the barrel free floating ? What I ran into, at a local shop, was a 69A in a 75 stock. The 75 has a thicker barrel which left the barrel free to float. The shop owner was selling it as a match model Winchester 69A. It is still there.
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Old 10-29-2010, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Bobin Maine View Post
Is the barrel free floating ? What I ran into, at a local shop, was a 69A in a 75 stock. The 75 has a thicker barrel which left the barrel free to float. The shop owner was selling it as a match model Winchester 69A. It is still there.
No, this is a true 69A stock, no front barrel band hole or evidence of one. I also do not believe the barrel is free-floated though I haven't checked, but will this weekend when I also measure those hole spacings. The 75 Target stock, at least the early ones, has a checkered metal buttplate btw, this one has the standard "72" stamped composite one.

Appreciate the compliments and whatever you can do to help in this task JW!

Last edited by 22AGS; 10-29-2010 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 10-29-2010, 10:23 AM
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I dug this up in the archives.
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=283582
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Old 10-29-2010, 11:46 AM
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AGS, Thanks for re-posting the info, I missed that thread the first time around.

FWIW, The Winchester catalogs between 1937 and 1941 list the Model 69 with standard sights available from Winchester already drilled and tapped but with no scope included. Winchester lists 3 different model #'s depending upon the sights and scope power. The Winchester #'s assigned to those factory D&T'd rifles with standard sights were:

G6952R
G6955R
G6956R

So, they in fact do exist and were listed as a separate option in the period Winchester catalogs and internal sales documentation. The initial factors in identifying one of the three models listed above are the location of proof marks (Winchester NEVER drilled through a proof on an initial factory installation) and the hole spacing/location.

22AGS, your rifle seems to be even more special as it has what appear to be factory sling swivels and upgraded/optional sights. Your stock could even possibly be a Target/Match stock which has a different drop at the comb than the normal 69 stock. You can easily measure the drop by removing the action and placing the stock upside down on a flat surface and measuring the distance from the surface to the heel.

Thanks for stirring the pot on these fine rifles.

Regards,

Last edited by JWA; 10-30-2010 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JWA View Post
AGS, Thanks for re-posting the info, I missed that thread the first time around.

FWIW, The Winchester catalogs between 1937 and 1941 list the Model 69 with standard sights available from Winchester already drilled and tapped but with no scope included. Winchester lists 3 different model #'s depending upon the sights and scope power. The Winchester #'s assigned to those factory D&T'd rifles with standard sights were:

G6952R
G6955R
G6956R

So, they in fact do exist and were listed as a separate option in the period Winchester catalogs and internal sales documentation. The initial factors in identifying one of the three models listed above are the location of proof marks (Winchester NEVER drilled through a proof) and the hole spacing/location.

22AGS, your rifle seems to be even more special as it has what appear to be factory sling swivels and upgraded/optional sights. Your stock could even possibly be a Target/Match stock which has a different drop at the comb than the normal 69 stock. You can easily measure the drop by removing the action and placing the stock upside down on a flat surface and measuring the distance from the surface to the heel.

Thanks for stirring the pot on these fine rifles.

Regards,
I will make that measurement as well this weekend to determine the drop. Thanks for doing the research!
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Old 10-29-2010, 03:46 PM
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69 mounts, etc.

Both my'38 & '39 catalogs show the rear scope mount on the barrel. By '41 (I don't have '40) the rear mount is on the receiver on both the 69 and 697 (hard to tell on the 67, 677, and 68) and-I believe-was so located until the end of 69 (non-"A") production. Interestingly, the cost for the 697 and 677 (no open sights) was the same as the non-tapped and open sighted stndard rifle. The 69 with the 96A rear peep and 97A front ramp was $.45 more. In '41 the 68 with the same sight setup was $6.65; with regular sights and scope bases, $6.60. The 5 power scope was an extra $6.40.

Interesting 69A owned by 22AGS; think of its value if originality could be definitively proven. I've got a nice 12 ga. Western Field pump that could possibly be wrested out of my hands for that one.............-Asa
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Old 10-29-2010, 04:38 PM
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Asa, throw in a coupla boxes of 45 shells and I'll think about it.

Here's some more threads where we discussed this gun. I am looking around in the site, somewhere there was a picture this past year of a proof mark that had been drilled through for the rear sight base.
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=343613
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=334968
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=333482

Last edited by 22AGS; 10-29-2010 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asa View Post
Both my'38 & '39 catalogs show the rear scope mount on the barrel. By '41 (I don't have '40) the rear mount is on the receiver on both the 69 and 697 (hard to tell on the 67, 677, and 68) and-I believe-was so located until the end of 69 (non-"A") production.
Asa, you are correct, that is what I saw in the catalogs also even though the Winchester model numbers remained unchanged. Coincidently, I don't have the '40 catalog either and my 1940 Shooter’s Bible only shows the open and peep models (G6901R and G6902R). Anyone have a Winchester 1940 catalog to check the photos for us?

Regards,
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 22AGS View Post
Asa, throw in a coupla boxes of 45 shells and I'll think about it.

Here's some more threads where we discussed this gun. I am looking around in the site, somewhere there was a picture this past year of a proof mark that had been drilled through for the rear sight base.
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=343613
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=334968
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=333482
I see that the first link here shows my "whatever", lol. I might try and dig it out this weekend and take some measurments for you guys if I get time.
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:18 PM
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69A just like yours

Thanks for contacting me 22AGS.I've been away with work and the kids and a squirrel hunt to West Virginia.As I mentioned before I have the exact same gun as yours.
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:19 PM
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Thanks Fillmore! We await your findings. I am going to post some more info as well once I pull my gun out for a thorough going over.
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:20 PM
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Thanks for contacting me 22AGS.I've been away with work and the kids and a squirrel hunt to West Virginia.As I mentioned before I have the exact same gun as yours.
.....and we're salivating over here trying to document our guns, you and I may indeed have something that as JWA and Asa have said are unique. Fingers crossed, and let the chips fall where they may. And do up some pictures!!
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Old 10-29-2010, 06:59 PM
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JWA, I am learning a LOT around you dude. I just found out that accurate measuring is HARD. Winchester shouldn't have designed their rifles to need so many scope holes!

Here are the dimensions as best as I could take them on my Lyman Dial caliper and in some cases where the distance was too great, a fine-mark tape rule. Yes, I would never pass the secret engineering test for "Can you measure accurately?". A machine shop would have me arrested. But I believe these are very very close.
You fellas who don't know what the heck all the fuss is about bear with us, we're trying to establish the existence of some previously unacknowledged factory versions of the 69A, and if you've seen all the times I've tried to do this, you'll understand I have a personal stake in the matter.

From the front of receiver where the bevel touches the barrel:

The distance to the center of the closest hole is 0.345".

Center to Center on the two rear holes is 0.864".

Center to Center between the forward rear hole and rearward front hole (()) is 6.5".

CtC on the two front holes is .572".

CtC on the outermost holes is 7 29/32".

Measured another way, the distance out from that beveled edge on the front of the receiver to the center of each hole runs like this:
11/32", 1 6/32", 7 22/32", 8 8/32".

With the stock resting upside down on a flat surface, the maximum drop at the toe is 6 1/2". Drop at heel is 1 3/4".

The Center to Center between the two sling swivels is 25".

And unfortunately, there is NO two-digit year stamp on the barrel.

Last edited by 22AGS; 10-29-2010 at 07:41 PM.
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