Modified firing pin for 6 Oclock Ignition - Page 7 - RimfireCentral.com Forums

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  #91  
Old 12-02-2019, 11:47 PM
Nolan

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbore View Post
I appreciate your participation, if you follow my posts you know I am consistent about quantifying results. I confess to being a little thin skinned about your reply perceiving you to have taken the trouble to discredit the only chronograph on the forum but not taking the time to read the provided experiment on the topic which was provided. My experience has been that the forum believes anecdotal evidence by the truckload, cliques perpetuate the myths and when someone comes along and actually does some testing or experimentation all of the sudden the forum has laboratory grade standards. I understand that we are here for fun, but that shouldn't dismiss facts or data.
You can rest easy knowing you're not the only chronograph owner on the forum. I have several, a PACT MKIV Timer/Chronograph, a ProChrono, and a Lab Radar. The Lab Radar has more or less retired the other two. It is just so much easier to set up and you would really have to work at shooting it, although I'm sure somebody will figure a way. I keep the ProChrono as a loaner and the MKIV mostly gets used as a shot timer for dry fire practice.

I love anecdotal stories, especially those involving maiden aunts, homemade brownies with little bits of green stuff in them, and go karts!

However for everything else, as a manufacturing engineer, I'll stick with hard data.

Nolan
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  #92  
Old 12-03-2019, 10:26 AM
Bigbore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nolan View Post
You can rest easy knowing you're not the only chronograph owner on the forum.

I love anecdotal stories, especially those involving maiden aunts, homemade brownies with little bits of green stuff in them, and go karts! However for everything else, as a manufacturing engineer, I'll stick with hard data.

Nolan
I'll take the opportunity to reiterate a couple of comments I've made in past posts.

My test and measuring equipment is mostly tier 2 which is usually approximately 100 X better than guessing.

If everybody would invest $40 in a HF digital caliper and Wheeler trigger pull gauge we would have a tsunami of data +/- 5% of their actual values compared to all the WAG's we currently have to suffer through.

Unrelated: LtCrunch and I are pretty much in complete agreement AFAIC.

Thanks for fessing up about the chronograph, I won't tell anybody.
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  #93  
Old 12-03-2019, 10:47 AM
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I have 2 chronographs, a cheap one that I share and a good one that I won't let others use. The cheap one has bent legs a lot of patch tape on the sky screens.

Looking at a 3rd for indoor use as my current models won't work under fluorescent lighting. The Youtube videos on it are pretty impressive. https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/FX_Ra...ronograph/9078

I'm also invoking our group TEAL Rule on myself. (TEAL=The Evil Admin Lady.) Before I respond I listen to Sophia's voice in my head. "Are you helping or just causing trouble?" If the latter then delete and move on.

Like you said Bigbore, we're here for fun. If we're having fun and hopefully helping others we're doing it right.

Cheers,

Frank
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  #94  
Old 12-03-2019, 06:06 PM
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I just function tested my 10/22 mule upside down. Winchester bulk ammo, all stock except for GM standard taper barrel and torsion spring trigger mod., rested on a bag just in front of the ejection port. 6 rounds no jams.

Game on.

PS I almost forgot to mention that all of my first round fliers disappeared.

Last edited by Bigbore; 12-03-2019 at 06:12 PM.
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  #95  
Old 01-01-2020, 05:11 PM
Bigbore
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I was able to make it out to the range today to do some crude testing. I attempted previously on 11/27 but it was a fail. My laptop wouldn't link to my chronograph via Bluetooth and when I finally got it working I was running late, only to find out at the range I had lost my range card. It was too late to recover so I had to postpone until today, the first chance after the holidays.

I intended to shoot 16 10 shot groups of four different types of ammo, cycling through them once Right Side UP, then Upside Down and then shooting a second round of the different types again after the first round fouled the gun a little. I ran out of Federal Automatch so there are only three groups. Shooting over a chronograph is fiddly at best, at a public range keeping one eye out for “The Man” is why you'll see some odd size groups. I had some errors and the shot string buffer filled so I didn't think it was recording giving me one very large string. I couldn't fiddle with the chronograph during a hot line and I wanted to get it done so it is what it is. Crudeness aside, it is raw data for peer review.

The chronograph was ~5' from the muzzle and I was shooting ~6” over the sensor. I was attentive to the position of the rifle as I shot so while not laboratory grade data, it should be decent. The software exports the shot strings into one long PDF if you select them all for export and does not format the pages perfectly but I was not going to export them one at a time. Pay attention to "RSU & USD", it is a secret code which describes rifle orientation.

Ruger OEM action, GM 18" standard taper barrel, ammunition is the same lots.

For your review, discussion and entertainment:






























Last edited by Bigbore; 01-01-2020 at 05:46 PM.
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  #96  
Old 01-02-2020, 06:12 PM
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Just to make sure I understand correctly, you FP is modified to hit at the bottom when in normal position, right?
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  #97  
Old 01-02-2020, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Markbo View Post
Just to make sure I understand correctly, you FP is modified to hit at the bottom when in normal position, right?
No, it is a stock rifle/bolt that I am literally operating upside down half of the time. One string the rifle is shot normally, the next string the rifle is turned upside down in the rest. It is a quick way to get some data on a 6 o'clock FP strike.
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  #98  
Old 01-03-2020, 12:28 AM
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So 6 o'clock FP strike is not the same thing as "to hit the bottom" of the round????
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  #99  
Old 01-03-2020, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Markbo View Post
So 6 o'clock FP strike is not the same thing as "to hit the bottom" of the round????
Well, it depends. I'm pretty sure I get your point, but it is more common than not to think that others understand what we are thinking when we post.

If you stand a cartridge upright on a table, anywhere you strike it on the primer will be the bottom. The point of this post is where a primer is struck in an unmodified gun fired in a normal--as a manufacturer expects-- orientation. If you imagine the primer surface as the face of a clock, it will be the "12 o'clock" position 99% of the time, turning the 10/22 upside down will make it a "6 o'clock" strike. The difference and relevance is all covered thoroughly in the preceding pages of this post.

Last edited by Bigbore; 01-03-2020 at 08:58 AM.
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  #100  
Old 01-03-2020, 09:42 AM
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Looking at the AVG V and STD I would have to say your experiment pretty much proved that the 6 o'clock does nothing to reduce velocity variations. Two of the rounds actually indicated that USD made the STD worse.
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  #101  
Old 01-03-2020, 09:50 AM
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Was this data collected using your new bottom location firing pin Bigbore? If so I agree, a definite reduction in SD albeit it based on a limited data set. If not then I agree with MKnarr.

Interesting, thanks for posting.

Frank
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  #102  
Old 01-03-2020, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
Looking at the AVG V and STD I would have to say your experiment pretty much proved that the 6 o'clock does nothing to reduce velocity variations. Two of the rounds actually indicated that USD made the STD worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LtCrunch View Post
Was this data collected using your new bottom location firing pin Bigbore? If so I agree, a definite reduction in SD albeit it based on a limited data set. If not then I agree with MKnarr.

Interesting, thanks for posting.

Frank
No modified equipment, I simply turned the gun upside down in the rest/bag.

My conclusion:

We now have the study that was linked to in a previous page and this data.

The data all has a time stamp so the actual time, and time between shots is ascertainable. I listed them in "1st group" then "2nd group", but in alphabetical order by ammo brand, not the actual order they were shot.

This was low grade ammunition and an inexpensive chronograph as noted earlier in the post, having said that, I found the data confirmations amongst strings readily observable and remarkable. I believe there are questionable numbers, but there is very little that is unexpected in the numbers which I considered a validation of the data's integrity to a point. In this vein, keep in mind the gun was moved and repositioned between each string and the numbers are still what is expected for the most part.

I don't see a significant difference between strike positions although the long Win Dyna string showed a consistent "climb" in velocity IIRC.

This pretty much confirmed the study linked to previously although cruder equipment and lower quality ammo. I think the other experiment showed superior ignition at 6 o'clock but it is not translating into a notably better performance that can be demonstrated.

Calfee said--to paraphrase--"all guns will be 6 o'clock ignition" IIRC. Hmmmm.

Last edited by Bigbore; 01-03-2020 at 10:45 AM.
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  #103  
Old 01-03-2020, 01:25 PM
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In all honesty BigBore, you really don't have a lot of data for each brand. BUT, when taken in it totality, I'm not sure that statically there was any difference between RSU and USD. I actually did the students T Test for both the AVG V and STD and it says there is no difference.

Last edited by MKnarr; 01-03-2020 at 01:33 PM.
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  #104  
Old 01-03-2020, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
In all honesty BigBore, you really don't have a lot of data for each brand. BUT, when taken in it totality, I'm not sure that statically there was any difference between RSU and USD. I actually did the students T Test for both the AVG V and STD and it says there is no difference.
I agree.

My goal was to add some data. I would like to take a barreled action, secure it in a rest and run a MUCH larger sample over a better chronograph with higher quality ammo. I don't see that happening any time soon and I wanted to add a little something since I did start the thread. At least I got something on the board and we may be able to argue that the topic has gone from muddy to cloudy?

IMO, the other experiment proved 6 o'clock strikes are more efficient but nobody has demonstrated it matters at the muzzle.
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  #105  
Old 01-03-2020, 06:00 PM
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I'm pretty sure at least one action maker offers two pins. One at 12 and one at 6. But I know one of the makers of a rim thickness measuring devices claims it improves precision but people who have done a lot of accurate experiments say it doesn't including Olympic shooting coaches.

I know Calfee swears that the 6 o'clock pin helps because the powder is at the bottom of the case so it get better ignition. (I've proved to myself that good(consistent) ignition does reduce velocity variations) The problem with that theory is the primer ignition is so fast and so is the powder I can't see how it helps. But Calfee also believes the muzzle is actually stopped by a tuner and he's wrong there.
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