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  #1  
Old 05-12-2021, 05:00 PM
MikeMyers
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Can magazine lips be adjusted in the shop, rather than at the range?



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Is it possible to test the feeding of a High Standard at home, using either the blue 22 "Dummy Rounds" or the red "Snap Caps" Would this be a valid way to test that the gun and magazine should be working well, before going to the range?

Specifically, if I can get the gun to cycle through five rounds manually, is that a good indication that the gun and magazine are likely to work properly with live ammo? ....or is it just a waste of time.

For those of you who adjust magazine lips, do you do this in your shop with a digital caliper?


More specifically, I've got two magazines in front of me, one a brand new Interarms magazine for the X-Series, which I got from Interarms, and an older Victor OEM magazine that came from Roddy Toyota with my Victor.

Dimensions:
Kicker Lips - nominal = .230, Interarms = .228, Victor = .238. (bold font is to show what is different from the other magazine)
Feed Lips - nominal = .185, Interarms = .184, Victor = .183

In my X-Series, the Interarms magazine jams, as the bullet is feeding into the chamber
In my X-Series, The Victor magazine feeds smoothly, no jams.

The biggest difference between them is the "kicker" lips.
I think I should make that one change, leaving everything else alone.

If so, it would be nice to see if either the dummy rounds or the snap caps feed reliably, before I go back to the range.


This makes no sense to me, as while the Victor magazine worked find in my X-Series, the last time I tried it in the Victor the rounds were going "high", and not entering the chamber.

Last edited by MikeMyers; 05-12-2021 at 05:06 PM.
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  #2  
Old 05-12-2021, 06:15 PM
MikeMyers
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The problem, round doesn't go all the way into the chamber....

http://www.sgrid.com/2021/IMG_4316.jpg
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Old 05-12-2021, 06:54 PM
MikeMyers
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Playing around with the X-Series Magazine, compared to the Victor Magazine. loading rounds in slow motion, by hand. With the magazine that doesn't work, the round starts to move forwards, then snaps upwards.

So I loaded both magazines with dummy rounds, and took a photo from the front, side by side:

http://www.sgrid.com/2021/IMG_4328.jpg

For yet unknown reasons, the rounds don't instantly "seat" into the magazine as high as they do in the Victor magazine, meaning they are too low, and maybe that is why they are getting stuck in the chamber. The rounds can be wiggled up and down at the front quite a bit, but the Victor magazine allows them to move up more easily than the other magazine. I assume they're supposed to be "floating", and will naturally go to the highest position. Am I wrong?

Last edited by MikeMyers; 05-12-2021 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 05-12-2021, 07:41 PM
MikeMyers
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I'm going to pretend to write this as if I knew what I am talking about, which is barely true.

In my measurements, the main measured difference between Interarms and Victor is the spacing between the "Kicker Lips".
  • The nominal distance according to my instructions is .230
  • My Interarms magazine spacing measured .228, pretty much the same.
  • My Victor magazine spacing measured .238
Wider spacing allows the round to go higher.
Narrower spacing allows the round to go lower.

My rounds are going too low, meaning I think I need to increase the spacing from .228 to .238 which should make the two magazines behave the same.

After many tries, with no change in the spacing, it moved slightly, and is now around .247 - which is more than I wanted, but my dummy rounds now cycle through the magazine and gun nicely. I'm not sure what tolerance is permissible, but I'll try this before I do anything else.
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Old 05-12-2021, 08:43 PM
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HSWayne
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Kicker lips

Mike, the kicker lips do not control the way the cartridge enters the chamber. The very front of the rear feed lips control the angle of the cartridge as it feeds. That is where you should concentrate your efforts. Would you also take photos of the breech faces of your barrels and link them in your response.

By the way, I have always adjusted my magazines in my work area.

Last edited by HSWayne; 05-12-2021 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 05-12-2021, 08:58 PM
MikeMyers
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Certainly - here's the photo I took a few days ago, after cleaning:

http://sgrid.com/2021/IMG_4310.jpg
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:02 PM
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In your first photo the round is completly free of mag - so mag has nothing to do with the problem (unless the bullet or brass is distorted from poor feed) so that problem could be related to a firing pin dent on chamber mouth ,really dirty camber , sharp edge on chamber - something like that.

The other problem - check https://histandard.info/Jim_Barta/ for another way to adjust mag and maybe a different idea might help. Also what Hamden said to keep round controlled - though that
might lower rounds in mag.(they won't pop up as they feed. Some drag on front lips works for me (usually a little less than Hamden recommended for me)

-But once the front lips are wider than the brass ( about .230 ) they will do nothing to make the round feed higher or lower - because they aren't touching it any more.
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:02 PM
MikeMyers
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Regarding the kicker lips, what you wrote is what I thought I understood, but all I was trying to do was match the lips dimensions from a magazine that did work, to my new magazine that was having issues. It already works "better", but that's here at home. If I can get to the range tomorrow, I'll see how it shoots.

The feed lips seem different on my magazines, but they measured the same. That's what I had expected I needed to change (as you just wrote).
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:10 PM
MikeMyers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlp4951 View Post
In your first photo the round is completly free of mag - so mag has nothing to do with the problem (unless the bullet or brass is distorted from poor feed) so that problem could be related to a firing pin dent on chamber mouth ,really dirty camber , sharp edge on chamber - something like that.
For both mags, the round was free, and moved up and down smoothly with minimal resistance. When I was cycling the gun earlier, the blue dummy rounds seemed to "catch" on something, and didn't smoothly go into the chamber. After adjusting the front of the kicker lips, the gun cycles smoothly - here at home.

It's a fairly new gun. I haven't shot it all that much. I can't see any firing pin dent on the chamber mouth, but Alan did tell me I could dry-fire the gun, so I used to do so. I used a larger brush to clean the chamber just two days ago. If there's a "sharp edge", I don't know what to look for.

I do have another Victor barrel that I can attach to the gun tomorrow and test it, if needed.
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:17 PM
MikeMyers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlp4951 View Post
.....The other problem - check https://histandard.info/Jim_Barta/ for another way to adjust mag and maybe a different idea might help. Also what Hamden said to keep round controlled - though that might lower rounds in mag.(they won't pop up as they feed. Some drag on front lips works for me (usually a little less than Hamden recommended for me)...
I have a printout of that page in front of me, and I measured most of my magazine lips to see what was different between one that works, and one that didn't work. I posted those numbers up above. The feed lips had the same number.

Not sure what you mean by Hamden said...... will go back and read that. But before I change anything else, I want to test the mag the way it is now.

If you want to see more photos of the breech face of the barrel, before cleaning, I have them too, but they looked filthy. They looked like there was a ramp, but Alan tells me they don't have a ramp. I don't understand the photo - the opening looks oval, not round......
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Old 05-12-2021, 09:37 PM
jlp4951

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Hamden had recommendation in other mag adjusting thread before this one- Bend front lips in to hold round fairly firmly - I don't do that but it works for him, I go with lighter contact than he suggested

Take barrel off and see it rounds just drop all the way into chamber, if they do you are OK.

Firing pin should not hit chamber when dry fired but sometimes they are fit too long or they kind of settle in when dry fired a bit and extend farther towards chamber and start to make contact.

Jim barta.s instruction are really more about how the round sits in mag the way I read them - and less about measurement once you get started
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Old 05-13-2021, 03:13 AM
hamden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeMyers View Post
Certainly - here's the photo I took a few days ago, after cleaning:

http://sgrid.com/2021/IMG_4310.jpg
After cleaning??? What the heck is that chipping stucco looking crud?
Is that the new gun?

The front lips on my original mags are average .220 wide. Tightest is .217

The rear gap on most is .187.

And they have worked fine for 50 years.

Last edited by hamden; 05-13-2021 at 03:16 AM.
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Old 05-13-2021, 06:06 AM
MikeMyers
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hamden - yes, this is the X-Series that I bought in early 2020, and has mostly been sitting in my safe, since March 2020 when I stopped shooting because of the virus. I have no idea what any of that "stuff" is - I'm a photographer, not a gunsmith. Here are two new photos, one taken of this gun before I removed the barrel, and another view of the breech face, with different lighting.

I have no idea what that "stuff" is, or why it's there.

http://sgrid.com/2021/IMG_4305.jpg

http://sgrid.com/2021/IMG_4314.jpg


I suspect that "junk" is lead, that has been shaving off my rounds the didn't load properly, but that's just a wild guess. If so, would a brass brush remove it all? I'm not sure what things are supposed to look like......

(Why do I need to post these images as links, rather than as images? When I use the "Insert Image" tool, nothing shows up.)


I bought some indelible metal markers, and will be numbering all my magazines today. I will then add all the dimensions to my list:

http://www.sgrid.com/2021/Screen%20S...2007.13.34.png

The only change I have made so far is to the top listing, "magazine #1". They will all be labeled, and measured, hopefully this morning.

Last edited by MikeMyers; 05-13-2021 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 05-13-2021, 06:50 AM
MikeMyers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlp4951 View Post
.......Take barrel off and see it rounds just drop all the way into chamber, if they do you are OK.....
The gun hasn't been cleaned since shooting it yesterday morning, so the barrel looked "dirty", maybe from yesterday, and maybe from all my testing last night with dummy rounds. Rounds dropped mostly in, just using gravity, then stopped.

I ran a wet, then dry patches through the barrel, and now they fall all the way in.

(My cleaning is to use an over-size brush to clean the chamber, then to use wet patches, then dry patches. I don't use a brush on the bore.)



Now you guys have me wondering how I should clean the breech face. My photo made it look worse than what I can see with my eyes, but the camera doesn't lie. I do have another Victor barrel, and the breech face just looks like "black" metal. Maybe I should try the gun with that barrel?
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Old 05-13-2021, 07:32 AM
MikeMyers
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Originally Posted by jlp4951 View Post
In your first photo the round is completly free of mag - so mag has nothing to do with the problem (unless the bullet or brass is distorted from poor feed) so that problem could be related to a firing pin dent on chamber mouth ,really dirty camber , sharp edge on chamber - something like that.

The other problem - check https://histandard.info/Jim_Barta/ for another way to adjust mag and maybe a different idea might help. Also what Hamden said to keep round controlled - though that
might lower rounds in mag.(they won't pop up as they feed. Some drag on front lips works for me (usually a little less than Hamden recommended for me)

-But once the front lips are wider than the brass ( about .230 ) they will do nothing to make the round feed higher or lower - because they aren't touching it any more.

Everything you all say is starting to make sense to me. I'm re-reading everything, to see what I am missing.

One question - do you guys agree with this page:
http://ashevillerifleandpistolclub.o...2-107-PTS1.pdf

If so, I think this paragraph explains what is going on, and as I understand it, it matches the advice I'm getting from all of you:
"Adjust the front of the rear lips of the magazine as needed. Keep the lips parallel. To adjust, place the cut in the adjusting tool firmly on the feed lip(s) with the edge of the tool even with the front edge of the lip as shown in the picture."

"Hold the tool firmly against the lip with the index finger of the hand holding the clip while rotating the tool up or down with the other hand. Bending the lips in (rotating the tool end upward in the picture) will lower the feed angle and opening the lips (rotating the tool end downward) will raise the feed angle."

"Bend each lip equally a small amount and test the bullet position as shown above. If too much bullet is exposed the bullet will feed high into the top of the chamber. If the lips are bent down too much the bullet may jam or, at least, shave lead on the bottom of the chamber. Over-bending or excessive adjusting may eventually cause the lips to break, so go slowly and when the clips feed reliably leave them alone. If the lips are bent down far enough to change the distance between the rear lips such that they restrict slide movement, file an equal amount off each lip such that the slide moves freely between the lips."


I think the words in bold-face describe what is happening to my gun, with the new Interarm magazines. I think that wording, and all of you, are suggesting that THIS is the adjustment that is causing my problems.
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