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  #16  
Old 07-29-2021, 10:02 PM
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left and right on target length of recoil and breadth. lower on the target add height to length of recoil and breadth. marty
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  #17  
Old 07-30-2021, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by earnest View Post
James, need an adjustment to raise and lowerthe rear rest otherwise adjusting only the front rest by itself results in poi shift be it up or down or vice versa. depending on how the target is shot marty
I agree. But as I stated it was a "proof of concept" sort of experiment. It did improve my scores though...I averaged 249 on the IR 50/50 target that year in our heavy factory club class. Granted, not as difficult as the USBR, but not shabby for a true factory gun.

I agree about the rear rest needing to be adjustable and was actually thinking of experimenting in that direction (I get a lot of enjoyment out of building my own vs buying ready made), but alas, the club decided to change directions and discouraged the shooting of true factory guns by doing away with a true factory class.

No doubt a really nice one piece setup would do better. I think.

Last edited by pump .22s; 07-30-2021 at 08:48 AM.
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  #18  
Old 07-30-2021, 08:59 AM
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How can it matter whether adjusting the front or rear rest for elevation?
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  #19  
Old 07-30-2021, 10:06 AM
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Trajectories are different

I think what Marty is saying is that on different positions on the target, different recoil paths come into play.

For example, if everything is centered and leveled at the center bull of the target, moving the rifle to the top row of bulls will give the rifle a “downhill” trajectory relative to the centered, leveled condition. Conversely, going to the bottom row will see the rifle recoiling “upward” relative to the start position.

Small amounts? Sure, but we all know that changing shoes in the middle of the target will change POI so an actual change in recoil impulse will more than likely cause POI issues of some sort.

Tony
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  #20  
Old 07-30-2021, 10:47 AM
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Just to be clear, I was shooting factory Winchester 52 guns, and was trying to design something that would work with that gun. As you know, the bottom of the butt stock is not flat, but is rounded or radiused pretty sharply compared to something relatively flat. In my cobbled together roller rest, the stock sits down on and slightly between the two rollers. What I found was that I had to be very careful about aligning the stock parallel to the rollers. If not, then I found that the stock tended to want to roll to the left or right somewhat as it recoiled and tried to climb one or the other of the rollers...depending on how the rollers were misaligned. The more the misalignment, the more the roll. To help counteract this tendency, I attached a flat Delrin type slider plate on the bottom of the fore end as well as one on the bottom the front rest plate. I also attached a flat piece on each side to the side plates. I then made sure everything was centered as well as possible and snugged the plates up to the fore end.

The issue of course is that as one tracks back and forth across the target, this shifts the position of the stock on the rollers - regardless of whether one has and adjustable front or rear rest. One brainstorm I considered was a roller rest attached by a pivoting rod to the front rest. The rod pivots off the front rest but is solidly attached to the rear rest. Then the roller rest sits on a platform with adjustments that allow movement of the roller rest horizontally and vertically. This way, one can track around the target, but orientation of the stock to the rollers remains constant.

Yeah, yeah, I know...sounds like a Rube Goldberg contraption. But I grew up on a farm where I learned to make stuff work.

For you guys shooting the custom guns with flat bottomed stocks, the solution is not necessarily the same, and of course you may have little interest in trying to wring the most out of a factory gun.

And my usual disclaimer...."for what it's worth".
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  #21  
Old 07-30-2021, 11:31 AM
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I love the homemade roller rest. Great ingenuity.

But, before building or buying something new, a better solution might be to sprinkle talc on the rear and front rest; this makes the surfaces a little slippery. Another idea is to place a used drier sheet on each rest under your rifle. Once again, this creates slippery surfaces. (Remember: USED drier sheets.)

(I scrolled through the replies, so if someone already mentioned these, I'm sorry for the repeat.)
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  #22  
Old 07-30-2021, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by aslap View Post
I think what Marty is saying is that on different positions on the target, different recoil paths come into play.

For example, if everything is centered and leveled at the center bull of the target, moving the rifle to the top row of bulls will give the rifle a “downhill” trajectory relative to the centered, leveled condition. Conversely, going to the bottom row will see the rifle recoiling “upward” relative to the start position.

Small amounts? Sure, but we all know that changing shoes in the middle of the target will change POI so an actual change in recoil impulse will more than likely cause POI issues of some sort.

Tony
Whether you raise the front rest or lower the rear rest barrel alignment in relation to poi will be the same. If the target and all points on the target are uphill they will remain uphill if it is downhill it will remain downhill the target and the bench are fixed in place relative to each other. If the target is 18" high to achieve a parallel trajectory from top to bottom you will have to raise or lower the rifle 18".
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  #23  
Old 07-30-2021, 09:35 PM
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if your rifle is accurate enough, you'll notice as you transition down, only moving the front rest impact will be low. I do not believe most shooters bench, rest and targets are on the same plane. marty
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  #24  
Old 07-30-2021, 09:42 PM
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pump, shot most of my life with folks who were not rocket scientists, with the exception of Trevor. always thought no matter what you do, it's best to be the best you can. no excuse for farmers, they have somehow managed to keep us all fed, some more than others.....marty

ps; if there are any benches, rest and targets truly parallel to the shooters line of sight sure would like to see that set-up..marty again

Last edited by earnest; 07-30-2021 at 10:16 PM.
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  #25  
Old 07-30-2021, 10:31 PM
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If you setup the rifle to be straight on the top left target when you crank the front rest over to the far right target and the rear bag isn’t moved seems like there’s bag bind, Stock not straight in the rear bag.

Is that something ? Does anyone move the rear bag as they shoot across the card?
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  #26  
Old 07-31-2021, 09:18 AM
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I just hope there are no new shooters trying to make sense of this because it doesn't.make sense other than the bag bind question. Optimally the front and rear bag should be in line with the point of aim but even a one piece rest will pivot as you adjust for windage.

Last edited by jqunac; 07-31-2021 at 09:28 AM.
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  #27  
Old 07-31-2021, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jqunac View Post
I just hope there are no new shooters trying to make sense of this because it doesn't.make sense other than the bag bind question. Optimally the front and rear bag should be in line with the point of aim but even a one piece rest will pivot as you adjust for windage.


How is that possible, when the whole top plate moves as one? that is the whole reason if allowed most will use a 1-piece as the rear of the stock will not bind as it will always be on a straight plane to the front and top plate.

Why it doesn't make sense to you is that, you do not understand how recoil will affect how a tuned rifle will shoot. change the angle of how the rifle will recoil will effect how it recoils in relation to speed of rearward movement.

Lee
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  #28  
Old 07-31-2021, 10:04 AM
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If you setup the rifle to be straight on the top left target when you crank the front rest over to the far right target and the rear bag isn’t moved seems like there’s bag bind, Stock not straight in the rear bag.

Is that something ? Does anyone move the rear bag as they shoot across the card?
This why I used only the short ear bags, to have as little side contact as possible. it didn't eliminate completely any increased friction, but helped reduced most of it.

Did you ever thought of using a lazy susan to put the bag on so it would pivot as the front is moved side to side.

Don Stith once mentioned using one in a ir50 match and after the match, the match director ask him not to use it again.

Lee
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  #29  
Old 07-31-2021, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by earnest View Post
pump, shot most of my life with folks who were not rocket scientists, with the exception of Trevor. always thought no matter what you do, it's best to be the best you can. no excuse for farmers, they have somehow managed to keep us all fed, some more than others.....marty

ps; if there are any benches, rest and targets truly parallel to the shooters line of sight sure would like to see that set-up..marty again
Marty, if I understand your question....

These are the benches at the club I shot at, and when I set my gun up on a bench and put a level on it, it was possible to hang targets so that I could be dead center on a bullseye. But it is not easy to find a place where everything is perfectly level....at least in my neck of the woods.




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Originally Posted by Hi-NV Shooter View Post
This why I used only the short ear bags, to have as little side contact as possible. it didn't eliminate completely any increased friction, but helped reduced most of it.

Did you ever thought of using a lazy susan to put the bag on so it would pivot as the front is moved side to side.

Don Stith once mentioned using one in a ir50 match and after the match, the match director ask him not to use it again.

Lee
I agree about the short ears on a bag, as I too think you want have as little interference as possible with the stock and it's recoil. The lazy susan idea never occurred to me....I would have mounted my rear rest on one had I.

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  #30  
Old 07-31-2021, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Hi-NV Shooter View Post
[/U][/B]

How is that possible, when the whole top plate moves as one? that is the whole reason if allowed most will use a 1-piece as the rear of the stock will not bind as it will always be on a straight plane to the front and top plate.

Why it doesn't make sense to you is that, you do not understand how recoil will affect how a tuned rifle will shoot. change the angle of how the rifle will recoil will effect how it recoils in relation to speed of rearward movement.

Lee
"but even a one piece rest will pivot as you adjust for windage."

You are correct I didn't elaborate, pre-coffee, and I should have anticipated how it could have been misinterpreted. The top plate pivots at the front for POI changes. I meant to illustrate that changes in POI by adjusting in a line perpendicular with a target vs. angular changes isn't practical as was the discussion previously. I do hope you realize the impracticality of suggesting angular changes can be avoided.

As to your last paragraph I'm assuming you are not using a straight line stock and you are using a tuned rifle with a two piece rest set-up. I don't see many competitors shooting UL with a two piece rest and always wondered why one would. If I'm shooting UL I'll take every advantage I can. When shooting factory I like the challenge of using my hold to try to overcome the shortcomings of a two piece rest. I actually use a bipod with a rear bag so elevation changes to POI are dependent not only on vertical angle changes but also on where the bag contacts the stock so there are a myriad of minute influences changing from shot to shot. If you can isolate these minute changes to a degree that you can improve statistical accuracy above the noise floor I salute you.

As to guessing how a minute of a degree can impact the vibrational pattern in a tuned rifle, well, that time would be better spent practicing my hold at the bench or even sitting in the back yard studying how my flags react to small changes in the wind. The point is there are far more beneficial ways to improving ones accuracy than internet pontificating.

Last edited by jqunac; 07-31-2021 at 01:07 PM.
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