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Old 10-20-2017, 05:58 PM
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PPQ 22 Trigger Job?



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Took the new 22LR shooter to the range to try her out and have decided that the trigger needs some improvement, in particular smoothing and lightening. Have done some heavy searching but found nothing on doing this with the 22 so it looks like I'm going to have to try to work this out myself.

Unless some skilled gent has already travelled this road and is kind enough to advise.
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Old 10-20-2017, 08:07 PM
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http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/p...-weight-5.html

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/p...-weight-5.html



I've done a few of course....most are at WaltherForums. One in the stickies up above..... Crete and I go back and forth on it from time to time. He is the only serious P22 shooter posting around here...actually competing in 25M rapid fire. His trigger cannot be below a certain pull. 1,000 gms or so. The problem is the pictures are gone thanks to Photo Bucket...I still have them, just have to rehost.



Basically,, my trigger job involves about three or four things. I lay the nose of the sear on some every paper resting on a glass table (flat surface) and sand off the bottom of the two sear faces, undercut them to reduce their height. The bottom is what releases the hammer....no need to touch the top. But, leave enough for safe engagement and holding of the hammer primary hook. Note....there are no jigs or special tools for this. Initially balance out your cut visually, look at the two arms and make sure you remove the exactly same amount of material from each. You can check all of this with dye or a magic marker later. Make sure the face of the sear is smooth and polished.....one side typically has a seam running through the face of it. Remove that.

Then assemble the sear and hammer on the right side of the pistol frame, springs removed...sear and hammer...press the part together for a very close look. One trick here now that you have narrowed the face of the sear is to take a look at lowering the height of the primary hooks....there are two. I lower mine to the point that it is level with the top edge of the sear. All this is doing is reducing the amount of distance the sear has to move to break from the hammer. At this point you haven't reduced the amount of effort required to release the hammer. You have minimized trigger movement required to release the hammer and probably any trigger creep.

To reduce trigger pull this is no trick. No weaker springs for the sear or hammer. The P22 does employ a pretty positive angle to the primary hook. I don't have any vise or gauge for measuring exactly what the hammer is doing as the trigger is pulled regarding movement of the hammer. A harder pull will press the hammer rearward....but only a very tiny amount. As you stone the engagement angle of the hook to make it move toward a more neutral angle...trigger pull will go down. But you have to be very careful and carefully test for secure engagement or the hammer can slip off the sear. The secondary hook will likely catch the released hammer but this is not something you want. Properly set up you cannot press the hammer off the hook, shake it off, bang the pistol firmly into a folded towel...if you can....the hammer is not safe and more work is required.. Further complicating all of this is that there are no guides, no stoning tools, no factory information so proceed slowly and you must test and you should mark the hook and sear surfaces and look at wear to the engagement areas. It should be even. You will also notice that there is quite a bit of slop even in new parts. With enough skill and patience you can drop the trigger pull below 2 lbs and have it uniform, creep free and safe.....you can also order new parts to replace the ones you ruin during you learning curve.

I need to put the pictures back up some day.



Ignore the red lines under the sear....those are only because I didn't have the sear all the way down when I took the picture. What you see here is a reduced sear face height and a reduced primary hook height. I've also changed the angle of the face of the hook so that drawing a line from the center of the rotating sear through the face of the sear and then adding a line parallel to the hook face shows a more neutral angle that stock. You can see how tall the stock hooks are and how wide the sear face is. If you have a 1911......all of this has been detailed out to the millionth of an inch. P22....nothing but what I've done as far as I know.



This picture is not too good but it illustrates what is going on and what someone doing a trigger job would be looking at. You can see the outer rotation of the sear, the straight line from center of rotation to the center of the sear face and then the angle of the primary sear face in relation to the rotational circumference. What you do not want is the primary hook face slanting away from the sear.....or the sear can slide up it and release the hammer. You might read up on 1911 work or other sear work to get a better understanding of what goes into a trigger job. Don't forget some firearms allow spring weight changes, out of the pistol, very precise stoning jigs and jigs for holding the parts for inspection with regard to fit. Nothing like this exists for the P22 so proceed with extreme caution. Walther isn't going to advise you in any way. My triggers end up just slightly over 2lb, there is no felt movement of the sear across the face of the hammer hook. It just breaks.

I further remove the hammer strut making the pistol a SA only firearm. This allows the trigger to reset in about 1/8". Then I add an overtravel and pre travel stop and I have a pretty good, SA target pistol. It takes 1/2 lb of pull to wind the trigger bar spring. That is part of the total to be sure but should be considered because what is left over is the actual friction between the sear and hammer....if the trigger spring required 2 lbs to wind...you would not want a 2.25 trigger unless it was a factory set up and even then it would have to be treated politely. 1917

Last edited by 1917-1911M; 10-20-2017 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 10-20-2017, 10:53 PM
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Ah, so the PPQ 22's relevant trigger bits are the same as the P22's, didn't know that, I've be searching the PPQ 22 specifically and found nothing.
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Old 10-21-2017, 12:59 PM
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Sorry....didn't see the fine print. Actually everything on this site is really small for some reason. I haven't figured out how to enlarge it to the old days. The above is for the P22. If I remember correctly the PPQ hooks the sear over the top of the hammer and is very easy to get to and remove. Totally different layout but some of the same concerns apply. Carefully check it and I think you will see that the sear swings over the top edge of the hammer. Call that the hammer hook. The sere rotates rearward releasing the hammer. Here again angles are important and the amount of sear movement to release the hammer can likely be shortened.....but, I've never worked on one. 1917
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Old 10-21-2017, 08:58 PM
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Thanks heaps anyway 1917, in spite of all the hype the PPQ 22 trigger is unacceptable in my opinion, perhaps people get the centre fire striker version of the PPQ mixed up. The fore travel is good but weight ramps up and scratches until the trigger breaks which I hate, my preference is for the weight to reduce and then break or at least remain light with a bit of a ramp up right before breaking.

Anyway it's going to get molested and hopefully improved. Your approach to the P22 trigger will help 1917.
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Old 10-22-2017, 10:47 AM
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I looked carefully at the hammer/sear in the full size Smith M&P .22 which is made by Walther...Smith makes the compact. What I saw was that the rear mounted sear hooks over the top edge of the hammer to hold the hammer in a cocked position. Only one small pin needed to be removed to remove the sear. Then the sear face (which was rough) could be inspected and polished and whatever. With the sear gone the hammer hook ( top of hammer) was equally exposed as was how the two fit together, amount of overlap etc. I thought it would be very easy to do a trigger job on these pistols. I had pictures too....not sure where they are but I probably have them. It wasn't my pistol...so, I took it apart, looked it over, took the breech apart.....a bit tricky, put it all back together cleaned and lubed after firing it. Full size pistol but it functioned 100% and was accurate.
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Old 10-23-2017, 01:42 AM
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OK, who stole my post and pic which should have been # 6?

Anyway, after dobbing some moly grease on the hammer/sear interface the trigger is already much better and those two components are nicely finished so not much more to be gained there. The travel is OK too. The stamped steel trigger bar runs in a groove for much of it's length, I suspect some attention is needed there where it seems a bit scratchy.

Actual attention to the mentioned bits is next, trying to suss it all out before knocking pins out.
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Old 10-23-2017, 09:22 AM
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Shown is the hammer hook on the top of the hammer. I believe this is the Smith made compact but the full size pistols are similar.



Another view but with the hammer caught by the sear. The system is very simple. One pin removes the sear from what I remember. If I were working on this I would begin at the trigger and see if anything is having a negative impact on the smoothness of the trigger movement.

Next I would move to the trigger bar....is it smooth, no sheared edges dragging on anything, are all the points where it pivots over something nicely polished, etc.

It seems this gets you pretty close to the rear of the trigger bar and the business end of sear rotation off of the hammer hook. So these two faces need a very careful look. How do they fit? Put some dykem blue or red magic marker on them, pull the trigger....where is the engagement? Study on what would make the trigger pull better. It seems a spring controls some of this but is not the mainspring. Would a lighter spring ease the trigger pull weight? Are the surfaces of the sear and hammer hook smooth and meeting nicely. Can one be shortened just a bit.....work on the cheapest part .... and I think that would be the sear. The hammer will be in the $25+ range. I expect the sear is much less. I don't remember exactly how these work but after smoothing up.....is there a spring that simply controls the amount of trigger pull required to stretch it which is almost separate from friction in the fire control components.

I don't have one to look at but first thoroughly understand how all parts work together. As I recall the system seems to be well designed. 1917
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Old 10-23-2017, 07:07 PM
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Thanks again for the pics 1917, the PPQ's sear works the same but the parts would not be interchangeable although similar. Agree that the mechanism is a nice design, it's relatively easy to track the operation of the main parts and identify potential problem areas, no doubt the absence of a conventional safety reduces complexity.

The coil hammer spring looks like it's the one that goes down into the grip. It certainly helps to give the firing pin a good whack, the pin indentation made on the back of the case is about twice as big as the Buck Mark I had made but that should be left alone as it helps reliability I think.

My problem is that I want to avoid pulling the whole gun apart, I'd much prefer to work on it a section at a time. It looks like the trigger section and the hammer/sear section can be worked on separately, have you any idea which to do first?

Pic of the PPQ that disappeared.
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File Type: jpg DSCN0469.JPG (349.0 KB, 86 views)
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Old 10-23-2017, 07:35 PM
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No not really, the one I pictured is the compact which is made by Smith. 100% reliable but the barrels are no good, at least I never saw a good one. How does the mainspring come out? Bottom of the grip somehow? I will say this in regard to shortening this type of coil mainspring....probably not a good idea. I order a couple of extras for $1 each for my Bodyguard. Took off about 0.005" and it wouldn't fire any .380 ammo. The stock spring runs fine. So, this might be a case where the expertise of Wolff springs is needed if changing the mainspring strength is the best approach. Or....a hand full of springs and start grinding just a tiny bit off as you proceed to failure. Then you will know when to stop on the next spring and if this is helping at all to begin with. Look at a diagram and see how the pistol is put together. Compression coil spring you say... I haven't looked at one and have forgotten most of what I looked at in the Walther made full size M&P .22. I only notice that they are very similar in certain internal regards. 1917
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:01 AM
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It looks like the hammer holds the coil spring in place, there is a connector that goes from the hammer down to the top of the spring. Once the hammer pivot pin is removed I can imagine the spring wanting to launch the hammer skywards. I don't anticipate changing or altering any springs because the design is such that only the hammer spring has any significant effect on trigger weight. For firing reliability I'd prefer to leave it as is.

This gun is a neat design, there don't appear to be any compromises that reduce it's integrity, it should shoot quite well once it's tuned. Grip is a bit slim side to side but hopefully a Hogue Handall 1700 grip sleeve will fix that.
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Old 10-24-2017, 09:50 AM
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What I remember was the Smith version was big. The grip on PPQs are too big for my hands.



Hammer/sear, trigger bar, etc. somewhat the same.



Took the breech block out to see what made it and the firing pin and extractor work....as I remember...this took a very careful inspection in order to determine just how Walther had put it together....



Since it was a plinker and not self defense I didn't worry about this too much but did pass it on to the engineers in Arnsberg. Laying the pistol down abruptly on the left side would disconnect the mag since the button stuck out so far. This was a pistol my son showed up with....not sure who it belonged to but they wanted me to look at it.....so, I looked at it, cleaned it after firing, lubed and put it back together. No mods were attempted. I really liked the breech face design and the no nonsense extractor which gripped a round against the breech face tightly and held it there. As I recall ejection direction was consistent and in a proper direction. I thought the rear and muzzle were ugly....some little bit of detail was needed to make the pistol look better. Again this is the Smith version made by Walther not the PPQ which looks considerably better in my opinion. 1917
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Old 10-26-2017, 02:34 AM
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Did you actually try a PPQ for fit 1917 because the grip is not as big as it looks, particularly concerning trigger reach because the grip has a big recess up high which makes reaching the trigger easier than it may look. Better than the Buck Mark for example.

As usual I'm delaying working on the trigger, all those little bits scare me, they invariably want to escape to some dark place where a human can't get at them.
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Old 10-26-2017, 07:14 PM
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http://www.waltherarms.com/wp-conten...ison-Chart.pdf

Above is a chart you might find some interesting information on. 1917
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Old 10-26-2017, 07:34 PM
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The hammer hook sits right up top with the hammer let forward. Doesn't get much easier than that. Have a look at it....smooth, rough, could be polished, take a very, very careful look at fitment against the sear and the angle of the hook. A good photo from the side, blown up later is very useful I find. I can even pull lines across the edges and then put a protractor on it. Exact angle. Redneck engineering.

Then there is the sear. What holds it in? On the Smith....one little pin...easy to remove, if there is any spring pressure...it isn't much. Same questions....angle, smooth, polished and then you get into the amount of movement needed to disengage the two parts. This can go a long way toward removing any creep if there is any.

A large baggie makes it impossible to for parts to escape. Look things over very carefully before you take them apart, carefully photo them, how they fit. If still nervous, take something partially apart, put it back together, take it apart a little more. Most of these things aren't too tricky if you pay attention to what you are doing. It might not be necessary to disassemble the entire pistol....some things there is no further improvements that can be made. Some pistols like a Ruger LCP simply stretch a coil spring. That is the trigger pull....you could put a weaker spring in and have misfires due to too light a hammer hit. Since this is a plinker I don't mind working on the trigger pull. Self defense pistols benefit from a bit more pull in my opinion. Sometimes it is necessary to handle them in a bit of a hurry and you don't want to 2 lb trigger...at least I don't..
1917
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