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  #1  
Old 06-17-2017, 08:13 AM
fourbore
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Speculation on casue of safety issue



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I been thinking, after I handled a Mk IV that would malfunction, I may have missed an opportunity to break the gun down and look inside. Look at the component position before and after that initial click. I may go back with a pocket LED light and see if the shop owner will allow. That assume the gun is still there.

Anyone with a gun that needs the fix, and understand the basic trigger operation, could remove the upper and take a look.

And to give credit where due: it was explained in a prior thread that this is not a new problem. New to my though process but not to veteran gunsmiths. In brief the sear gets moved a little even when the gun is on safe , in this scenaio, 1/2 safe.

With my above inspection and reading prior post, I think it is a good assumption (only an assumption) that initial click is the sear FULLY releasing the hammer. To much noise for anything else, I think.

Now, why is it the hammer does not always fall? I speculate the sear is very close to the hammer and still held by the safety bar. And it has gotten jammed up solid between the hammer and the safety lever. The bottom rounded area of the hammer has a flat relief surface. It looks like after 10-20 degrees rotation the the hammer could bind up on the sear. Once the safety is released the sear is pushed away and hammer falls free.

How to fix? More sear engagement? Just what we need right

The cause, stack up of loose tolerances including the hole spacing on the grip frame.?

Right, wrong? Anyone with a bad pistol could look.
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  #2  
Old 06-17-2017, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourbore View Post
I been thinking, after I handled a Mk IV that would malfunction, I may have missed an opportunity to break the gun down and look inside. Look at the component position before and after that initial click. I may go back with a pocket LED light and see if the shop owner will allow. That assume the gun is still there.

Anyone with a gun that needs the fix, and understand the basic trigger operation, could remove the upper and take a look.

And to give credit where due: it was explained in a prior thread that this is not a new problem. New to my though process but not to veteran gunsmiths. In brief the sear gets moved a little even when the gun is on safe , in this scenaio, 1/2 safe.

With my above inspection and reading prior post, I think it is a good assumption (only an assumption) that initial click is the sear FULLY releasing the hammer. To much noise for anything else, I think.

Now, why is it the hammer does not always fall? I speculate the sear is very close to the hammer and still held by the safety bar. And it has gotten jammed up solid between the hammer and the safety lever. The bottom rounded area of the hammer has a flat relief surface. It looks like after 10-20 degrees rotation the the hammer could bind up on the sear. Once the safety is released the sear is pushed away and hammer falls free.

How to fix? More sear engagement? Just what we need right

The cause, stack up of loose tolerances including the hole spacing on the grip frame.?

Right, wrong? Anyone with a bad pistol could look.
My thoughts are that all of the above is speculation and basically irrelevant (may satisfy the curious). The problem as I understand it is that the safety does not always go completely to the on or off position. When it goes to this in between position, this is the starting point for the failure/unsafe condition.

The obvious fix is to rework (replace) the safety components so that condition cannot occur. I highly suspect that when the pistol has been reworked by Ruger, you won't be able to place the safety to an in between position.

Last edited by theearlof; 06-17-2017 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:55 AM
fourbore
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A more positive detent would be great. But, given the magnitude of the recall for ruger and the level of discussion on this forum. Yes, I am curious. Darn curious. That is what this forum is about. Curiuos why the sear is balanced. I would think the real gun nuts would want to know. I expect when the guns come back, there will be more curious speculation. It might be obvious, it maybe more subtle. You may not care. I will remain ..... curious.

So, maybe one of those who can easily confirm and repeat the issue, how about lifting off the upper and watching what happens?

Look at my quote, search for the word speculation. See that?
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  #4  
Old 06-17-2017, 11:04 AM
fourbore
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Knowledge is always a good thing. We have been told by credible expert sources that some guns (not ruger, could be anyone) have failed in similar manner when the safety was on FULL SAFE. I find that interesting. Knowledge of that is also good to know.

It would be darn nice, if one of those who own a "issue" pistol to take a look and tell us what you see. Am I asking too much? Its a very destructive click, something big is going on under the hood.
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:49 AM
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Since we're guessing, how about this:

There is a link between the outer safety lever and the inner safety lever where a stud on the outer lever fits into a slot in the inner lever. Perhaps there are some inner or outer levers that are out of spec. If the stud is too small or the slot is too large you will have unintended movement of the inner safety lever that holds the sear. This slight movement could cause the condition of unintentionally releasing the hammer. I suggest that the problem may be with the inner safety lever and that is why the "S" is added to the inner safety lever. Ruger is appearing to "improve" the safety/sear interface.
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Old 06-18-2017, 12:29 PM
fourbore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkB1 View Post
Since we're guessing, how about this:

There is a link between the outer safety lever and the inner safety lever where a stud on the outer lever fits into a slot in the inner lever. Perhaps there are some inner or outer levers that are out of spec. If the stud is too small or the slot is too large you will have unintended movement of the inner safety lever that holds the sear. This slight movement could cause the condition of unintentionally releasing the hammer. I suggest that the problem may be with the inner safety lever and that is why the "S" is added to the inner safety lever. Ruger is appearing to "improve" the safety/sear interface.
Our two proposals are not mutually exclusive. Except my bit about sear engagement. The hammer could be released and hung up on the sear and the interface you are thinking about could be the root cause or a factor involved. Looking under the hood with a light probably would not tell us about the safety lever but it might reveal how (or if) the hammer hung up.

Reminder , There is nothing wrong with a gun firing when the safety is in the middle and trigger pulled. The problem is discharging when moving the safety to red.

The RFC member with 5 MK IV pistols would be in a good position to study before and after pistols. I dont think he had one that actually fails the test.
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:25 PM
fourbore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCD
Or do as most folks do with Ruger 10/22 and pistols. Rip out all the crummy factory parts and replace them all with aftermarket ones.
I did this already to the fullest extent possible. I "think" I am ok? ... But....

Ok, first. This is not intended to be another complaining and arguing thread or another stress filled re-call what-to-do discussion. BTW, most of the anxiety, I think, results from all the unknowns. That aside, not my interest here. Those with no technical interest can participate to what ever extent they desire. All are welcome. I do hope to spur some detective work with what is now on hand. That is pistols that mis-behave and do not have the recall fix. Bottom line, I understand many people dont care about details. That is all ok. I dont care the 22/45. I dont read the posts over there.

The problem with the above quote, it is assumes we have an understanding of the offending parts and the resulting behavior and what to watch for. Beyond that, there are no aftermarket safety levers or hammer pin ( what ever they call the part with the lever and detent). Both suspect parts at this point. We have aftermarket sears, but as yet still dont understand the interaction that causes a fail. No one here has looked in side to see what happens during the fail. Ruger will not be returning the removed parts. Now is a good time to start looking inside these pistols.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:07 PM
fourbore
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I went back this morning and looked at the failing gun at the local shop.

The hammer indeed does fall part way and hang up. Then when the safety is fully depressed the hammer drops the rest of the way. I find this interesting.

I was unable to see the sear with the magazine disconnect blocking my view. The hammer must be hung up on either the sear or the magazine disconnect. The sear seems most likely. Almost for certain, but; I cannot see down there.

Now, I can just wait and see what the new Ruger parts look like.
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  #9  
Old 06-19-2017, 03:58 PM
JGR_LV
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Very interesting!

Like the OP, I'll admit to being curious, and that partial fall of the hammer is really interesting. The hammer on a Ruger isn't supposed to fall when the safety goes on. The fact that it is falling is the problem. It's sort of the reverse of a safety problem with some of the WWII-production Walther P38s. That gun, of course, has a decocker safety, like the modern Walther P1, PPK, the first and second generation S&W autos and most of the external hammer Sigs and Berettas. The decocker lever is supposed to engage locking lugs on the side of the firing pin BEFORE the hammer drops. Some of the wartime production guns had sloppy fitting of those engagement surfaces inside the decocker barrel or on those firing pin lugs, and dropping the hammer with the decocker onto a live round would cause the weapon to discharge.
The light, two-piece firing pin of the Ruger, plus the return springs, makes a firing pin lock unnecessary on the Ruger, and the safety is definitely not a decocking safety.
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