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Old 08-03-2014, 12:20 AM
Richard King
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Curio and Relic, determination?



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I have a Belgian made Challenger, for sale on the board. It was made in 1965. On January 1, 2015, will it automatically achieve Curio and Relic status?
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Old 08-03-2014, 12:02 PM
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I could be wrong, but I think the short answer is NO.
It is still considered a modern weapon and fires moderen ammunition.
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Old 08-03-2014, 12:07 PM
63Chuck
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C&r

The first criteria is 50 years and older.
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Old 08-03-2014, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JackBlades View Post
I could be wrong, but I think the short answer is NO.
It is still considered a modern weapon and fires moderen ammunition.
This has no bearing on it if it passes the age barrier
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Old 08-03-2014, 12:29 PM
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Quick answer from the horses mouth below.

http://www.atf.gov/files/publication...curios-relics/
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Old 08-03-2014, 01:06 PM
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Richard,

Your Challenger was made towards the end of production in 1965. That year Browning/FN made about 10,000 Nomads/Challengers/Medalist. Your SN (using 00 as the last two numbers) is 748 before the last 1965 SN in my records. There could be no more than 544 numbers between the last 1965 and first 1966 SN that I have. Thus, the earliest your Challenger could be prior to end of production in 1965 would be 1292, [748 + 544 = 1292] Your Challenger is likely less that 1000 before the end of 1965 production. Hope this makes sense.

I don't know how BATF&E starts the count for 50 years. That is, with your Challenger, do they start at January 1, 2015 or sometime towards the end of 2015

SO

Last edited by seaotter; 08-03-2014 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 08-03-2014, 01:42 PM
Richard King
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Richard,

Your Challenger was made towards the end of production in 1965. That year Browning/FN made about 10,000 Nomads/Challengers/Medalist. Your SN (using 00 as the last two numbers) is 748 before the last 1965 SN in my records. There could be no more than 544 numbers between the last 1965 and first 1966 SN that I have. Thus, the earliest your Challenger could be prior to end of production in 1965 would be 1292, [748 + 544 = 1292] Your Challenger is likely less that 1000 before the end of 1965 production. Hope this makes sense.

I don't know how BATF&E starts the count for 50 years. That is, with your Challenger, do they start at January 1, 2015 or sometime towards the end of 1965.

SO


Thanks to all, that responded! Seaotter's response, is what I was trying to figure out? As a ex gobiment employee, their opaque though processes. Is a source of neverending amazement.

I was afraid if I wrote the BATF for a determination. One of their GS 11 paper shufflers, would just give me the runaround. It always seemed to me, their mantra is " If I don't do anything, I won't be held accountable".
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Old 08-03-2014, 01:55 PM
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Odds are pretty good that it will have to go FFL to FFL (not C&R FFL).Those fees on each end are just part of the way it is.
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Old 08-03-2014, 02:48 PM
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Ok, assuming 50 years, that makes my HS Sport King a C & R.

What is the advantage to this?
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Old 08-03-2014, 02:57 PM
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Ok, assuming 50 years, that makes my HS Sport King a C & R.

What is the advantage to this?
You can get a C&R license for relatively inexpensive and order qualifying guns direct - no transfer FFL needed. Some states don't allow C&R for handguns, I think Cali requires it to be sent to a FFL and then the FFL can transfer to your C&R

Your C&R is also good for a discount at brownells and used to be good for one at midway, which made the $35/3yrs worth it alone.
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Old 08-03-2014, 03:21 PM
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As someone who was responsible for trying to interpret and enforce a number of federal regulations for more than 30 years (and **** glad I'm now retired), my admonition to my subordinates was that you can't take a singular phrase from a regulation and have it stand on its own. You have to look at the reg in its entirety. IMO, in this case the mere fact that a gun is more than 50 years old wouldn't necessarily make it a C&R. This is the definition straight from the regulations:

Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.


The first sentence in that definition is the operative one. You've got to get past that in order to get to the 50 year aspect. I doubt that a Browning Challenger, HS Sport King or other such similar firearms would pass muster under the ". . . special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons" provision even if they are over 50 years old. My opinion only.

Last edited by losrobles; 08-03-2014 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 08-03-2014, 08:06 PM
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" I doubt that a Browning Challenger, HS Sport King or other such similar firearms would pass muster under the ". . . special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons" provision even if they are over 50 years old. My opinion only. "

It is my understanding that the Gold and Renaissance Browning Challengers do qualify as C&R, regardless of age.


SO
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Old 08-03-2014, 08:13 PM
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There is a list of exceptions to the rule for the general age.

Also, if goign based on age, it must be complete and and in original configuration (or as close as possible to it for NFA purposes).
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:32 PM
losrobles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seaotter View Post
" I doubt that a Browning Challenger, HS Sport King or other such similar firearms would pass muster under the ". . . special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons" provision even if they are over 50 years old. My opinion only. "

It is my understanding that the Gold and Renaissance Browning Challengers do qualify as C&R, regardless of age.


SO
Ah, yes. Those might indeed meet that "special interest" threshold.
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  #15  
Old 08-03-2014, 11:42 PM
Mark75H
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There is a BATF issued list of those guns that meet the special interest criteria before being 50 years old, its a black and white issue, no grey area. Guns less than 50 years old have to be on the issued list to be C&R.

The BATF interpretation is 50 years; this is also black and white (what constitutes 49 or 50 may be fuzzy, but there is no doubt when the year ends and you are at year 50+). As we progress thru this decade, a lot of junk will become C&R eligible.

C&R license holders may transfer C&R eligible guns between themselves across state lines without a FFL01 involved (in person or via UPS/FedEx, but not USPS). The gun law idiot states regulate instate transfers of C&R stuff but the free states do not.

In supreme idiocy, Maryland requires a new license with fingerprinting to purchase a new handgun and the handgun must be on a special approved list. If the handgun is older than 1985, it does not have to be on the special list. If the handgun is older than 50 years old (C&R eligible) you do not have to have the new license, but still have to wait 7 days after applying to purchase to pick up (supposedly so you won't take your new purchase down to the liquor store and rob it or shoot your brother-in-law even if you already have 1, 10 or 100 other guns) and you have to have a special permit if you wish to purchase more than one per 30 days.

Last edited by Mark75H; 08-03-2014 at 11:47 PM.
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