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  #16  
Old 09-20-2021, 08:46 AM
Hozzie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by analretentive View Post
It's an easy fix. Just add 25 points; 1 each for each dot touched. Perfect score is now 2525, and becomes rare but doable overnight.

Gerry
I don't personally have an issue with this, but it then becomes more work for the match directors. One more thing to plug which I expect most want to avoid. I would like to also see both Factory and Unlimited use the same scoring rules for consistency. This for me would mean they need to go to an X count for unlimited as well.

At the end of the day it only matters what ARA thinks. I probably won't ever shoot factory class, but there is a part of me that thinks so many being shot diminishes the actual achievement.

Again, just my opinion. I have talked in person to the factory guys about it. It's just a difference of opinion. I think most understand both sides of it, it's just where you sit on it.

As one of our fellow competitors says a lot, "we aren't winning a Corvette doing this."
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  #17  
Old 09-20-2021, 02:07 PM
Pipes1

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Since I am a relatively new factory class shooter I will probably get negative feedback for this post but I really can't see where there is anything wrong with the current target.

Looking at the results from the Nationals, it doesn't appear that 2500 points is that easy to achieve.

26 shooters attended.
207 total targets were shot.
Only eight 2500 scores were posted.
That is only 4% of the total and only one shooter managed to post two 2500s out of the 8 target match.

My impression for one of the factory class goals was to bring new shooters into the sport while having the umlimited class for the more experienced group. The the current factory target allows for even brand new shooters to enter the sport with the opportunity to at least place some of their shots in the 100 ring, keeping them from getting discouraged and not coming back for the next match.

All I have to do is shoot the other side of my target to realize how far I have to go before being competitive in unlimited. Factory class gives us the opportunity to enter into a lower level of competition where many will move on to unlimited and some will continue to enjoy the sport at the factory class level but we should all hope we don't scare off anyone wanting to try competition.

I got into the sport to have fun and it certainly has been an enjoyable ride.

Just my opinion.
Robert
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  #18  
Old 09-20-2021, 02:55 PM
Hozzie
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For completeness there were zero 2500's out of 816 cards shot for unlimited at Nationals.

No one is saying Factory shooters should have to shoot the unlimited target (although I personally think there is/was a case to be made for that).

If we make the big leap that Unlimited guns are at least twice as accurate as Factory guns (very generalized based on target size since the unlimited 100 ring is not quite half the size of the factory 100 ring) and that the Unlimited shooters are much more experienced (probably true overall), then we should have seen at least the same percentage of 2500's from the Unlimited shooters.

I guess I see ARA as the top of the food chain in BR (along with IR). It isn't meant to be easy and at this point my view is they made it too easy so people feel good. It's just too "everyone wins a prize" for me personally for what is supposed to be one of the top 'competitions'. I realize I am probably the minority and many like it just the way it is.

I'm just one opinion and like to debate so I hope no one takes this personal.

Last edited by Hozzie; 09-20-2021 at 04:09 PM.
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  #19  
Old 09-20-2021, 02:57 PM
92lowrider
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Too easy of a target

Here are my thoughts as an equipment supplier.
Factory Class we were all told would be a great addition to get new shooters “started” in ARA. Gunsmiths and equipment makers would benefit down the line as these new shooters progressed and wanted better guns and equipment to move into unlimited class.
Let’s see a show of hands for those out there that want to go from shooting 2300-2400 aggs and occasional 2500 cards with sub $1000 gun to spending $5-6K on a gun and several grand more on rest and equipment so your aggs can go down to the 2000-2100 range and a 2500 being a holy grail gift from heaven.
I personally think the factory class target was made way too easy! I have even seen shooters switch from unlimited to now only shooting factory class.
I don’t think factory class would keep many shooters coming back if they had to shoot the same target as unlimited, I know I wouldn’t feel good even winning the factory class section at a match with a 1200 agg on a 2500 target but to have the average scores of factory class shooters almost consistently always higher than those of unlimited shooters sitting next to them is not promoting advancement.
Just my thoughts, as I said I make and sell equipment for unlimited shooters so I am biased
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  #20  
Old 09-20-2021, 03:54 PM
Turbosam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 92lowrider View Post
Here are my thoughts as an equipment supplier.
Factory Class we were all told would be a great addition to get new shooters “started” in ARA. Gunsmiths and equipment makers would benefit down the line as these new shooters progressed and wanted better guns and equipment to move into unlimited class.
Let’s see a show of hands for those out there that want to go from shooting 2300-2400 aggs and occasional 2500 cards with sub $1000 gun to spending $5-6K on a gun and several grand more on rest and equipment so your aggs can go down to the 2000-2100 range and a 2500 being a holy grail gift from heaven.
I personally think the factory class target was made way too easy! I have even seen shooters switch from unlimited to now only shooting factory class.
I don’t think factory class would keep many shooters coming back if they had to shoot the same target as unlimited, I know I wouldn’t feel good even winning the factory class section at a match with a 1200 agg on a 2500 target but to have the average scores of factory class shooters almost consistently always higher than those of unlimited shooters sitting next to them is not promoting advancement.
Just my thoughts, as I said I make and sell equipment for unlimited shooters so I am biased
And who are you?
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  #21  
Old 09-20-2021, 05:56 PM
vlnbyr

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pipes1 View Post
Since I am a relatively new factory class shooter I will probably get negative feedback for this post but I really can't see where there is anything wrong with the current target.

Looking at the results from the Nationals, it doesn't appear that 2500 points is that easy to achieve.

26 shooters attended.
207 total targets were shot.
Only eight 2500 scores were posted.
That is only 4% of the total and only one shooter managed to post two 2500s out of the 8 target match.

My impression for one of the factory class goals was to bring new shooters into the sport while having the umlimited class for the more experienced group. The the current factory target allows for even brand new shooters to enter the sport with the opportunity to at least place some of their shots in the 100 ring, keeping them from getting discouraged and not coming back for the next match.

All I have to do is shoot the other side of my target to realize how far I have to go before being competitive in unlimited. Factory class gives us the opportunity to enter into a lower level of competition where many will move on to unlimited and some will continue to enjoy the sport at the factory class level but we should all hope we don't scare off anyone wanting to try competition.

I got into the sport to have fun and it certainly has been an enjoyable ride.

Just my opinion.
Robert
Well I think you have it just right, have fun and SHOW UP & SHOOT.
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  #22  
Old 09-20-2021, 07:19 PM
doclu60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hozzie View Post

As one of our fellow competitors says a lot, "we aren't winning a Corvette doing this."
Brought me out of the closet with that comment Jamie! To the point, no we aren't.

Scott
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  #23  
Old 09-20-2021, 07:46 PM
mpolk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pipes1 View Post
I got into the sport to have fun and it certainly has been an enjoyable ride.

Just my opinion.
Robert
I am just getting into this. Been shooting longer distance Silhouette matches, and the factory class appealed to me with a lower budget and front rest and rear bag. I have already sunk more money into it than I dreamed I would, because I am enjoying it. I am 71 years old. I play golf 3 times a week because I enjoy it. If it isn't fun, I ain't gonna do it. I definitely do not have to win to have a blast, not saying I don't enjoy winning, but it is similar. It's a game and I keep my perspective where it should be. JMHO.

At some point I may try unlimited, but for now, I am having fun.

Last edited by mpolk; 09-20-2021 at 07:48 PM.
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  #24  
Old 09-21-2021, 12:36 PM
52DH&R12

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hozzie View Post
We will have to agree to disagree John. 15 Factory 2500's were shot on Saturday at Kettlefoot. I am not sure how many factory shooters there were, but 15 is a crazy number. My opinion is it needs a reset now before it gets even worse. Yes, some records will be relegated to the past, but better to fix it now in my opinion. We know what they say about opinions .
Sounds like someone has 2500 envy. JMO The reason for the number of 2500 shot at these matches by CZ's is simple. MD-PAS ignition.
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  #25  
Old 09-23-2021, 12:30 PM
ruffis

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ruger 8378

Quote:
Originally Posted by gkgeiger View Post
And several are over $1k msrp. I’m shooting a one myself, a 457 VPT. I understand why some people are pissed. I wouldn’t be upset if they enforced the rule. I know what I would buy.
What would you buy? I have a Ruger LRT 8378 that If it had a match chamber I think it would out do the CZs. We have three CZs that I shoot against at my local club and I can hold my own even winning about 30% of the time. By the way the 8378 has an MSRP of a little over 500$
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  #26  
Old 09-23-2021, 03:47 PM
gkgeiger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruffis View Post
What would you buy? I have a Ruger LRT 8378 that If it had a match chamber I think it would out do the CZs. We have three CZs that I shoot against at my local club and I can hold my own even winning about 30% of the time. By the way the 8378 has an MSRP of a little over 500$
That “if” is a big word. With that said I would probably go with the MTR. I had one and it was great, I just don’t like the stock. As I said, I’m currently shooting a VPT. I might also consider a TRR-SR.
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  #27  
Old 09-24-2021, 09:35 PM
mpolk
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We have 4 MTR'S shooting in our matches.
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