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  #16  
Old 05-09-2021, 08:59 PM
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Well Phil, If it is only 3 out of 5 you wont lose much money! Most squirrels are shot at an average of 100 feet which is 33 yards . I can do better at 50 , most folks can. I assume you are coming off of you 4-5" claim?? let me know on that! I am still standing on my $10 per shot claim at 50! Not trying to be argumentative and hoping if we have to get together on this I can stay at your place and you are certainly welcome to stay here! I once traveled 632 miles to run a dog against another I can do it with a .22.
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  #17  
Old 05-09-2021, 09:03 PM
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I don't care about anything but what the ammo is capable of, that is all we are talking about. It doesn't matter if your personal gun doesn't like them it is about will HV ammo do it out of a factory sporter, you say no, I disagree and am willing to step up!
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  #18  
Old 05-09-2021, 09:17 PM
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Shoot a bunch of groups with current American made hvhp ammo and show what you can do with them. Be honest and don't toss the bad groups. I'm living on disability and can't show squat anymore. And hoarding the good Subsonic that I have.

I'm satisfied with 1-1/2 MOA accuracy. If I can get at least that, it means that any misses are my fault, not the ammo or rifle's fault. And what I'm working with is a Kimber 22 Hunter with a Leupold VX1 2-7x33mm, certainly not something set up for good benchrest shooting.
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  #19  
Old 05-09-2021, 09:25 PM
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I got two boxes of the 712 left, I might shoot them up for groups and take some pictures. I like target shooting anyways.

I've got one box of CCI Segmented Subsonics left from buying a couple of boxes to test, they are simply awful and I'm saving them for raccoon execution. They should be great for that.
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  #20  
Old 05-09-2021, 09:39 PM
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Phil, I am not going to take the "be honest" remark personal as you don't know me and I also see what I think is a bunch of BS on here! Anyhow, many good sporters will place shot after shot from HV ammo into a squirrels head at 50 yards. That is not BS , as most know it is a fact! I understand that is not target grade accuracy but it is darn good for $5 a box. I happen to know a little about target grade accuracy as well, and some of the BS about HV ammo I hear is just that, BS. But at an inch or a little more at 50 how can anyone call that junk at $5 a box???
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  #21  
Old 05-09-2021, 10:06 PM
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If an ammunition can deliver consistent 1" five shot groups at fifty yards, it would make good hunting ammunition, no doubt. But how much of it available will do that? Actually my personal accuracy standard isn't a whole lot better, 3/4 MOA vs 1 MOA is a very small difference especially at less than fifty yards. IF you get to talking about shooting critters at longer distances, like shooting squirrels in tall timber or prairie dogs and such where you're going to get shots at MUCH further than 25 to 50 yards, where do place your accuracy cutoff level? Which ammunition do you select? There really isn't much to choose from if you insist on high accuracy, high velocity and a hollow point bullet. Killing critters is different than punching holes in paper, and pure accuracy isn't everything. It's important as you can't kill what you can't hit, but after many years of hunting I do not like using low speed round noses. Good accuracy with a killing hollowpoint is my preference and is hard to come by.

Edited to add, I should have said 1.5 to 2 MOA, not 3/4 to 1, fifty yards vs one hundred messup

Last edited by Phil in Alabama; 05-10-2021 at 06:25 PM.
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  #22  
Old 05-09-2021, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil in Alabama View Post
I have gotten so angry before that I have thrown partial boxes of ammo out into the woods..
I kicked a slightly used brick of bulk ammo into a hole in the woods and kicked dirt over it and did my best to forget where I put it on our hunting 40 acres decades ago. Stuff was crap and will never soil another firearm!!
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  #23  
Old 05-10-2021, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Al the Infidel View Post
I kicked a slightly used brick of bulk ammo into a hole in the woods and kicked dirt over it and did my best to forget where I put it on our hunting 40 acres decades ago. Stuff was crap and will never soil another firearm!!
Al I wish I could dump a load of "crammo" I've been lumbered with in the same way.

Unfortunately it would probably be prohibited in the UK. I could take it to Bisley and ask them to dispose of it.

I had a few boxes of the old CCI Blazer sold to me for pennies from a gun shop owner who was closing down, it was an old batch and it shot amazingly well, as did the old green tag.
I've said it numerous times, just examine and old CCI compared to new the bullet heads not only have a better profile they are visibly better made.

They where my go to ammo until a few years back, accurate ungreasy and very quiet with a suppressor.

Then they went downhil.

To the OP that is one very sexy rifle, its got me thinking of getting another Annie as we have an old WW2 veteran at our club selling a Anschutz 52 which I might restock and scope this rifle

my current Annie will stay the same, as a small-bore "peep sighted" rifle, as its so pretty in its purist, original format. Plus I just invested a fair bit of money on some Gehmann sights.


Eley has fallen out of favor to some extent in the UK, this is because of batches, some batches work well others do not, our club returned an number of Tenex to the NSRA due to inconsistencies and with the black box we even the odd misfire or dud round.

The current thinking is, Lapua seems to have less variation from batch to batch


Many switched to Lapua Centre x and haven't looked back.

I have only had good results with Tenex, however at 24 a box they cant compete with Centre X at 8.

Even the action shooters moved away from the Eley black brass and moved to SK

Perversely the CZ prefers Tennex and my Annie prefers Lapua or SK std +


I feel a little sad that Eley has fallen out of favor but "thems the breaks" as they say"
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  #24  
Old 05-10-2021, 05:13 AM
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Yes, I can see where the OP's rifle will keep HV ammo in a Squirrels head..........with most of the shots. A round or 2 look like perimeter head shots. But what if a person wanted to place each shot within a specific area of the Squirrel head? Would the HV ammo consistently do that?
What if the OP used Phil's rifle and HV ammo at 50yds. Would the contest results be the same as using the bench rifle?
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  #25  
Old 05-10-2021, 06:46 AM
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While one can surely find some lots of cheap bulk HV ammo that is total junk you can also buy some that is not. The Federal blue box 800 round packs are terrible while most of the Federal 550 packs of copper coated rounds are pretty decent and more than capable of head shots on any small game. Agulia super extra HV is very good ammo. So is some lots of CCI blazer. Even Remington thunderbolt is better than it used to be.
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  #26  
Old 05-10-2021, 08:43 AM
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Millions of folks do just fine in the squirrel woods, plinking, and varmint control with high velocity .22 ammo. Their extra power is a plus in the game fields. I have shot thousands of squirrels with high velocity ammo and never felt that I was handicapped with it. Most squirrels are shot at far less than 50 yards and it would be unusual for a hv round to be found lacking at squirrel shooting distances.. Like anything else your gun may not like certain ammo but there is some that it will like. If not, that doesn't make it junk for the millions of guns that it does just fine in. For anyone to claim HV ammo is not accurate enough for squirrel hunting shows a lack of experience. That's the facts garnered from years of hunting and shooting. Thousands of dead squirrels is a pretty fair sample size.
I could not say that in all of those years of using hv ammo that I would have killed one more squirrel with standard velocity. Speaking of that I must have a good sample size of standard velocity kills to my credit, I do. I only shoot sporters anymore and I still have a fair amount of Eley match left which I use to squirrel hunt with every year, no problems, but HV ammo on marginal hits will do a better job at a much cheaper price. As far as hitting a particular spot on a squirrel ? One AIMS at a particular spot and though your gun may be capable of shooting into the 2's you are not going to hit that particular spot on a real regular basis unless you brought your bench and flags with you, just something else that experience has shown me. If one can't hit a cantaloupe with hv ammo then don't use it. But it shows a lack of experience to suggest that no-one else can and that HV ammo is junk for the ridiculous price of $5 a box, best ammo deal on the planet! Come back!
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  #27  
Old 05-10-2021, 09:34 AM
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One thing you all have to remember. That group shot with the Lapua Midas, I bought the case lot in 2012 at $1475 shipped or $14.75 a box. How many of you are willing to pay that much or more in today's dollars for an American made ammo to shoot that size groups. Many on this forum will but we are only talking about 160,000 people at best. I thought about posting a picture of a typical .22 target at 50 yards with about a 10 inch group. This is what I see most often at the range I am involved with and these are the people buying the bulk of .22 ammo in this country. Right now, Eley, RWS and Lapua have the market cornered and the world is their market. You don't spend millions of dollars to compete with companies that already have the market cornered unless you can beat them at the target.

As already pointed out, the $5.00 a box American ammo did pretty darn good. Yes it took a lot of dollars behind the firing pin to do that. Maybe the problem isn't the ammo but the equipment/rest/shooter behind it. I have a Ruger 10/22T this is somewhat modified and is bedded in an aftermarket stock. I also have an inexpensive Caldwell rest and the box of CCI mini mags left. (Remember, that's the stuff my wife bought for me and I just can't give it away as the song goes). When I get a chance, I will shoot a couple of groups to see what it will do in an everyday gun.

One other point about the target ammo. I have long resisted the comment "Find what your rifle likes". I know I'm going to sound like a snob but, since 2004 when I got into benchrest shooting, and I don't like to lose, I quickly learned that one lot of 22 ammo is not the same as the next lot. In my OP I commented on the quality of each lot. If I had not tested many lots of the same ammo, I would not have been able to define a good lot versus a bad lot. But again, I talking about three .22 rifles, all with heavy barrels, bedded in aftermarket stocks and all modified to some extent.

I've had outstanding and bad lots from SK, Lapua and Eley. Remember, my definition is based on how it does at the target versus the price. A 3/8 group from $7.00 a box is a good lot. From a $15.00 box it isn't. BTW, I just looked at my records and I have tested 36 lots of ammo from Eley Target to Eley 10X since 2004 and that includes SK, Lapua and RWS ammo. The majority of these tests are 15 two shot groups plus two 5 shot groups and all through the chronograph.

BTW, I use my hunting 10/22 to shoot prairie dogs out to 90 yards using the Lapua Midas. Yes, but with this ammo I don't miss very often and they are just as dead as if I shot HV stuff.

Last edited by MKnarr; 05-10-2021 at 09:37 AM.
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  #28  
Old 05-10-2021, 10:16 AM
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Cost is a huge factor. When you factor in five times the cost for the ammo, you have to weigh cost vs range of the shooting and adjust your distances to what you can afford. Not that many people can or will pay $25 a box for squirrel hunting ammo. You certainly won't be able to get in a lot of target practice with the big bucks ammo. Mid cost rounds like Eley Club, SK Rifle Match, etc., will get you a lot of accuracy that isn't there on low priced stuff, but like I've written in other postings, if you're shooting those it's best to stick to head shots. Body shots with match round noses can be wounders and non recoverable. Body hits with hvhp ammo might be messy but they're rarely not fatal.

I'd still like to see someone start a thread of grouping photos shot with stock hunting rifles shooting only American made hvhp ammo.
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  #29  
Old 05-10-2021, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
I thought about posting a picture of a typical .22 target at 50 yards with about a 10 inch group. This is what I see most often at the range I am involved with and these are the people buying the bulk of .22 ammo in this country.
*** Maybe the problem isn't the ammo but the equipment/rest/shooter behind it.
Or all of the above. If a person were new to the activity and had a stock 10/22 with an eight pound trigger and one kind of ammunition, how would he know that 10 inches is terrible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
Remember, my definition is based on how it does at the target versus the price. A 3/8 group from $7.00 a box is a good lot. From a $15.00 box it isn't.
That seems a reasonable way to measure accuracy, and not just for the pricey stuff. A lad looking for groundhogs might be thrilled at the value of four MOA from bulk ammunition if the price is right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
I have long resisted the comment "Find what your rifle likes". I know I'm going to sound like a snob but, since 2004 when I got into benchrest shooting, and I don't like to lose, I quickly learned that one lot of 22 ammo is not the same as the next lot.
I'm not reading that as resistance to "Find what your rifle likes", but measuring what your rifle likes by tested lot.
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  #30  
Old 05-10-2021, 11:12 AM
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My Crazy Ammo Test

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Even Remington thunderbolt is better than it used to be.

Not sure Id be willing go that far.


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Last edited by PEASHOOTER67; 05-10-2021 at 01:49 PM.
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