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  #46  
Old 02-05-2009, 04:12 PM
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My understanding is that long range is all about shooting bullets with the highest possible B.C. Berger bullets seem to make the highest B.C. bullets. A quick look at their web site will tell you what you want to shoot. It is all about highest B.C. per a given bullet weight. The 7MM has a much higher B.C. vs a 30 cal. Also 338 has a very high B.C. This is a simple numbers game.
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  #47  
Old 02-05-2009, 05:50 PM
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You can get to 1000 yards with a .308 using 155gr Lapua Scenars. That is the basis of the Palma shooting. It is not hard to develop a rifle to do this sort of shooting. Once you have the hardware assembled correctly, and your load development is consistant, you will need the sights, or optics to reach out that far. You will need to either have a scope with a very large adjustment range and/or a 20MOA scope base.

With the right muzzle break, you can significantly reduce the recoil for extended shooting times. The muzzle break I have on my rifle brings the felt recoil down to the .223 caliber impulse. This is the tool:



The worst part about that rifle is the loose screw behind the trigger.
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  #48  
Old 02-05-2009, 08:20 PM
trav_99
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Don't mean to hijak, but aziza, could you pm some info on your gun. That is exactly what I am looking to build in a 6br or dasher.
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  #49  
Old 11-07-2009, 09:46 PM
William Harper

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Smile Best Long Range Rifle for practice

Get youself a first class Whitworth .45 hexagonally bored muzzleloader with full kit with long-range sights and mould for the 550 grain hex. Get yourself a range-finder that can be trusted over 1 mile. Get all the good data you can. While you do that find a jacket that has a really thick recoil pad where you will most certainly need it. When you fire 90-100 grains of RS Pyrodex under that 550 grain hex, you will find out about recoil. Stick with it long enough and you will find that this rifle will hit a man sized target at one mile given the craft you will have gained with it. It silenced manned artillery batteries on Morris Island at Charleston, SC at 2,200 yards. The modern long range rifles are often as good or better, but will eat you alive in cost of rifle, scope, and the now horrendous cost of brass and bullets. With the Whitworth you make your own bullets and there is no brass. You gain the craft and patience.
An unfortunate Union General seeing his men cowering behind their breastworks with the Confederate lines nearly a mile away uttered these words,"What are you afraid of, men? They couldn't hit an elephant at this ran... !" He fell with a Whitworth bolt through his head. These days the smoke would bring mortars and other artillery called in on you. Scout snipers will tell you that the same thing can happen now from the dust kicked up by their Barrets. Good luck in your quest.
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  #50  
Old 11-07-2009, 10:22 PM
glocker17
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Buy something you can shoot in F class or similar competitions. You need lots of practice to shoot good at long ranges. Might need more than one barrel to really figure it out.

You will spend lots of $ as well. I shoot F class regularly, and it seperates the mall ninja, tacticol guys, and like out real fast. Many guns that llok good or have the right bolt ons dont always work. I drove a few guys crazy for over a year shooting a 223 with VLD bullets. They still dont see how it shot better than their high dollar 308 tactical guns. I didnt really shoot any better, but it was alot cheaper to shoot a bunch!

A savage target action, and a decent barrel is a good place to start.

Blake
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  #51  
Old 11-08-2009, 06:20 PM
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Dang now I want me a .308 but I also was thinking a .30 06 prolly will get a .308. I need to get an AR first.
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  #52  
Old 11-08-2009, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by AzizaVFR View Post
You can get to 1000 yards with a .308 using 155gr Lapua Scenars. That is the basis of the Palma shooting. It is not hard to develop a rifle to do this sort of shooting. Once you have the hardware assembled correctly, and your load development is consistant, you will need the sights, or optics to reach out that far. You will need to either have a scope with a very large adjustment range and/or a 20MOA scope base.

With the right muzzle break, you can significantly reduce the recoil for extended shooting times. The muzzle break I have on my rifle brings the felt recoil down to the .223 caliber impulse. This is the tool:



The worst part about that rifle is the loose screw behind the trigger.
Dang! Whats the specs on that? Gun make, scope, etc?
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  #53  
Old 11-09-2009, 09:33 AM
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Look at the new Savage target actions. You can get a complete rifle for about half of a custom built gun and outshoot the custom gun.

They resently won the F Class World Championships in Bisley, England using factory guns.
Team Savage Dominates F Class World Championships in Bisley, England

The 308 would be plenty to get out to 1000 yards but not much farther. If you are looking for something you can shoot economically at 1000 then look at the 308, the bullets choices are amazing if you decide to reload. Same goes for 30-06 also, both are equal as far as ballistics go.

If you don't need to get to 1000 then look at the 223. You can load the 223 to get you to 1000 yards but there are better choices out there. With that being said 223 will work great out to 600. I shoot my 223 at extended ranges and I really enjoy it. Another bonus is recoil is minimal.

I like having guns chambered in common ammo so you can at least buy factory ammo to practice if you run out of loading components and can't find them.

Gordon
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  #54  
Old 11-10-2009, 07:20 PM
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So, I thought I read somewhere in this thread .243, then I read the last post of .223? if one was going to shoot factory ammunition, not custom loads and wanted to shoot out to say 800 yards which would be better? Given a "built" custom rifle. Rem 700, or a savage.....

L.R.
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  #55  
Old 11-10-2009, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LONRGR View Post
So, I thought I read somewhere in this thread .243, then I read the last post of .223? if one was going to shoot factory ammunition, not custom loads and wanted to shoot out to say 800 yards which would be better? Given a "built" custom rifle. Rem 700, or a savage.....

L.R.
I would go with the .243.

You can get factory loads with 100gr. bullets flying 2960fps. For the .223 you are looking at bullets around 60gr. flying around 3100 fps.

I would choose a Rem.700 action. The number of builders who work with it are limitless. As are stocks available.
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  #56  
Old 11-11-2009, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .22Fan View Post
Dang! Whats the specs on that? Gun make, scope, etc?
Specs are as follows:

Stiller Precision Predator single shot short action. Link
Bartlein Barrels .30 cal, 4 groove .300"ID Hunter class barrel. Chambered with PTG pull-through match .308 reamer. Muzzle brake made from the barrel material and threaded to the barrel. Five flutes cut, high polished, then spiderweb pattern glass beaded. Link
Accuracy Innovations Laminated Thumbhole stock for Remington 700 in Ghost. Link
Jewell Trigger with safety for Remington 700, set at 17oz. Link
Talley 30mm stainless rings and bases. Link
Leupold VX-III LR 8.5-25x50 scope. Link

Build by WGR in Princeton, TX.
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  #57  
Old 11-12-2009, 09:12 AM
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and the out the door price on that gun was how much?
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  #58  
Old 11-12-2009, 10:17 AM
fr3db3ar
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and the out the door price on that gun was how much?
If you have to ask that question....................you can't afford it lol
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  #59  
Old 11-16-2009, 06:16 PM
AzizaVFR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LONRGR View Post
and the out the door price on that gun was how much?
Including the scope, $4,000.

Here is a picture of one other .308 he created and I am waiting to receive.





I think it is even more accurate than the single shot. The latest projects are his 6.5x284 and .300 Jarrett (runs a .30 caliper 155 Lapua Scenar or Berger 155 VLD at 3700fps).
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  #60  
Old 11-18-2009, 05:41 PM
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Mr. Harper, 2,000m with a Whitworth didn't happen. Here is a read for you. It is just an excerpt but the book is amazing. The book is called Sharpshooters and is written by Gary Lee.

Over sixty years ago in August, 1941, the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association published an article entitled "The Lone Marksman." It told how one man, Lt. Ephriam McLean Brank of Greenville, Kentucky, thwarted an entire column of British soldiers at New Orleans. The story seemed so fantastic that several questions came to mind. Why wasn't Brank himself a casualty? After all, the famous 95th Regiment armed with the Baker rifle was present. From what distance did Brank commence firing? Finally, could the story be substantiated? These questions prompted inquiry, and before we present the article in its entirety here first we need to digress.

British strategy for 1814 called for isolating the New England states a la Burgoyne with one army, sacking Washington with another and a third capturing New Orleans and isolating the interior from commerce. Commanding this last army was Sir Edward Pakenham, who arrived with his Peninsular War veterans on December 13, 1815. Pakenham, along with several of his generals, were killed in this one-sided battle that helped propel Andrew Jackson into the White House. From the battle, we have this account that was previously published by an anonymous British officer who fought there:

"We marched," said this officer, "in solid column in a direct line, upon the American defenses. I belonging to the staff; and as we advanced, we watched through our glasses, the position of the enemy, with that intensity an officer only feels when marching into the jaws of death. It was a strange sight, that breastwork, with the crowds of beings behind, their heads only visible above the line of defense. We could distinctly see the long rifles lying on the works, and the batteries in our front with their great mouths gaping towards us. We could see the position of General Jackson, with his staff around him. But what attracted our attention most was the figure of a tall man standing on the breastworks dressed in linsey-woolsey, with buckskin leggins and a broad-brimmed hat that fell around his face almost concealing his features. He was standing in one of those picturesque graceful attitudes peculiar to those natural men dwelling in forests. The body rested on the left leg and swayed with a curved line upward. The right arm was extended, the hand grasping the rifle near the muzzle, the butt of which rested near the toe of his right foot. With his left hand he raised the rim of his hat from his eyes and seemed gazing intently on our advancing column. The cannon of the enemy had opened up on us and tore through our ranks with dreadful slaughter; but we continued to advance unwavering and cool, as if nothing threatened our program.

'The roar of the cannon had no effect upon the figure before us; he seemed fixed and motionless as a statute. At last he moved, threw back his hat rim over the crown with his left hand, raised his rifle and took aim at our group. At whom had he leveled his piece? But the distance was so great that we looked at each other and smiled. We saw the rifle flash and very rightly conjectured that his aim was in the direction of our party. My right hand companion, as noble a fellow as ever rode at the head of a regiment, fell from his saddle. The hunter paused a few moments without moving the gun from his shoulder. Then he reloaded and resumed his former attitude. Throwing the hat rim over his eyes and again holding it up with the left hand, he fixed his piercing gaze upon us, as if hunting out another victim. Once more, the hat rim was thrown back, and the gun raised to his shoulder. This time we did not smile, but cast our glances at each other, to see which of us must die. When again the rifle flashed another of our party dropped to the earth. There was something most awful in this marching to certain death. The cannon and thousands of musket balls played upon our ranks, we cared not for; for there was a chance of escaping them. Most of us had walked as coolly upon batteries more destructive, without quailing, but to know that every time that rifle was leveled toward us, and its bullet sprang from the barrel, one of us must surely fall; to see it rest, motionless as if poised on a rack, and know, when the hammer came down, that the messenger of death drove unerringly to its goal, to know this, and still march on, was awful.

'I could see nothing but the tall figure standing on the breastworks; he seemed to grow, phantom-like, higher and higher, assuming through the smoke the supernatural appearance of some great spirit of death. Again did he reload and discharge and reload and discharge his rifle with the same unfailing aim, and the same unfailing result; and it was with indescribable pleasure that I beheld, as we marched [towards] the American lines, the sulphorous clouds gathering around us, and shutting that spectral hunter from our gaze.

'We lost the battle, and to my mind, that Kentucky Rifleman contributed more to our defeat than anything else; for which he remained to our sight, our attention was drawn from our duties. And when at last, we became enshrouded in the smoke, the work was completed, we were in utter confusion and unable, in the extremity, to restore order sufficient to make any successful attack. The battle was lost."1

James Tandy Ellis of the Filson Club of Louisville, Kentucky "made long inquiry and search for the name of this Kentucky rifleman, and at last found that his name was E. M. Brank of Greenville, Kentucky, and... found his grave at Greenville."2 Ephriam McLean Brank was born in Greenville, Kentucky on Aug. 1, 1790 to Robert Brank and Margaret McLean. He studied law and after the battle, returned to Greenville. He died at age 84 in 1875 and was buried there.3

Several questions come to mind. Why wasn't Brank himself shot? Second, at what distance did Brank commence firing and finally, is there any truth to this fabulous tale?

Turning to our first question, how could the British riflemen of the Third Battalion, 95th Regiment (3/95, later stylized as the Rifle Brigade), who had bested Napoleon's finest skirmishers, overlook a solitary figure standing atop of the breastworks? It is almost unthinkable that these Peninsular War veterans would ignore a prime and tempting target. For an explanation, we turn to Sir Harry Smith, of the 95th who was, at the battle, attached to Sir Pakenham's staff: "The American riflemen are very slow, though most excellent shots."4 While marksmanship is vital, 3/95 Quartermaster Williams Surtees provides greater details: "[T]he enemy had been quite prepared, and opened such a heavy fire upon the different columns, and upon our skirmishers, (what had been formed for some time within 100 or 150 yards of the enemy's works,) as it is not easy to conceive."5 If we accept Pickles's figure of 2,232 American riflemen to 546 British or 4:1, Surtees's comment is not unreasonable.6

Furthermore, Surtees provides further insight that increases this disparity: "The right column, under General Gibbs, was to consist of the 4th, 21st, 44th, and three companies of my battalion... The left column, commanded by General Keene, was to be composed as follows, viz. - one company of the 7th, one of the 21st, one of the 43d, and two of ours."7 This further reduced the number of British riflemen facing American riflemen and increased the ratio enjoyed by the Americans to 7:1 ratio (2,232 v. 239). Corroborating Surtees we have Sir Harry again: "Never since Bueno Ayres had I witnessed a reverse, and the sight to our eyes, which had looked on victory so often, was appalling indeed... The fire, I admit, was the most murderous I ever held before or since..."8 Quite a compliment considering Sir Harry fought the Spaniards in Argentina, the Dutch, and Napoleon and after New Orleans, at Waterloo, in South Africa (Sixth Cape Frontier War) and in India where he won fame and received knighthood. Put simply, there were more American riflemen present and being excellent shots, they simply overwhelmed their British counterparts.

The other question concerned the distance from which Brank commenced firing and again Sir Harry provides a clue. Detailed to a fatigue party tasked with burying their dead, Sir Harry notes: "A more appalling spectacle cannot be conceived than this common grave. The Colonel, Butler, was very sulky if I tried to get near the works. This scene was not more that about eighty yards away from them..."9 A British column marching at ordinary pace covers 62.5 yards per minute (30" pace at 75 paces per minute).10 It would take over six minutes for a column to advance over 400 yards. The column however, stopped to return fire. Sir Harry again: "[H]ad our heaviest column rushed forward in place of halting to fire under a fire fifty times superior, our national honour would not have been tarnished, but have gained fresh lustre."11 It was at this distance that most soldiers fell and were buried. Furthermore, 80 yards is beyond effective range of a musket armed soldier who lack marksmanship training.

With the exception of Brank, the Americans weren't offering a "figure of a man" and only their heads were visible from behind the earthworks. Like at Breed's Hill during the American Revolution, the British column stopped to fire when it should have rushed forward. While it is possible that Brank commenced firing from 400 yards distance, that isn't as plausible considering he was firing from an offhand position. For steadiness, rifle shooting at 300-400 yards is generally done either prone or laying upon one's back. Recall during the American Revolution when the bugleman whose horse was both behind and between that of Lt. Cols. Banastre Tarleton & George Hanger was shot from 400 yards by a rifleman who "laid himself down on his belly; for, in such positions, they always lie, to make a good shot at a long distance." Given that Branks fired at least four times and that it takes about a minute to reload, or three minutes altogether for three reloads, the column would have, at ordinary pace, advanced 187.5 yards. Add the 80 yards where most soldiers fell and we attain a minimal distance of 267.5 yards. Since Brank "resumed his former attitude" after his first shot, some distance must be added and how much more is left to conjecture.

We turn now to the final question, that is, whether a solitary rifleman could wreak such havoc. Surtees who, "was not in it... but I was so posted as to see it plainly," provides corroboration: "[T]he right column never reached the point to which it was directed; but from the dreadful fire of every kind poured into it, some of the battalions began to waver, to halt and fire, and at last one of them completely broke, and became disorganized."12 That battalion was the 44th Foot and our anonymous British officer was most likely among them. Before the battle Smith noted: "The soldiers were sulky, and neither the 21st nor the 44th were distinguished for discipline - certainly not of the sort I had been accustomed to."13 Seeing the 44th break, Pakenham cried out to an aide, "Lost for the want of courage," and rode off to rally them and while doing so, was fatally wounded.14

Clearly Brank did not repel the entire column single-handedly and he enjoyed the support of cannons as well over 2,000 fellow riflemen. This does not belittle Brank's achievement but places it into proper perspective. His was the "influence on the mind" that broke the officers' resolve. With its officers terror stricken, the men leaderless and demoralized from artillery and rifle fire, it is easy to see why the 44th broke. British casualties being over 33% (2,100 killed or wounded and over 500 captured), the prowess earned by the Revolutionary War American rifleman was not tarnished by those at New Orleans.

White House: When were you in Deuce Four? There weren't any sniper platoons in any of our companies; there was one sniper section per company. I was in Bco around the 2003 timeframe.

My platoon recently just received our m110's and will be getting our M24's rechambered to .300wm. Our m107's, and these changes will allow us to really cater to our missions.

To the OP: Sorry to highjack this thread. I say if you can afford to feed it, buy the .338

Cheers
Andrew

Last edited by victory; 11-19-2009 at 12:44 PM.
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