centerfire 22lr? - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-02-2018, 11:51 AM
minuteshaver

Join Date: 
May 2017
Posts: 
425
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
centerfire 22lr?



Log in to see fewer ads
Heres a question that has been fun over the years.

If the main drag of the rimfire is the screwy nature of the ignition, and the crimp, then why not perhaps say eliminate one and go with a centerfire version that's actually meant to be used in existing guns?

Cooper tried to make a 22 magnum in a center fire, but it fizzled out for cost reasons and they had the only guns. But does anyone else think that if the time is taken to make a center fire version that works with all existing guns, it can be economical?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-02-2018, 12:35 PM
NoSecondBest
US Navy Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Feb 2009
Location: 
Western New York
Posts: 
1,662
TPC Rating: 
100% (19)
No, and for a lot of reasons. Cost of adding a primer is one, current guns hit on the rim (and that's why they're called "rimfires"). Not even remotely feasible to convert. There are already a lot of .22 centerfire rifles in existence, what would be gained by adding another? This just doesn't seem like it has any merit at all.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-02-2018, 02:03 PM
schutzen-jager's Avatar
schutzen-jager
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2006
Location: 
peoples republic of new jersey
Posts: 
3,868
TPC Rating: 
100% (21)
back before WWII Col . Charles Askins had a Colt woodsman converted to .22 lr center fire for use in bulls eye competition - he used 5.5 mm velo dog center fire cases shortened to .22 lr specs - it was so successful that it was banned from use in NRA .22 matches -
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 03-02-2018, 03:03 PM
Pistolman
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Aug 2016
Posts: 
65
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by schutzen-jager View Post
back before WWII Col . Charles Askins had a Colt woodsman converted to .22 lr center fire for use in bulls eye competition - he used 5.5 mm velo dog center fire cases shortened to .22 lr specs - it was so successful that it was banned from use in NRA .22 matches -
Askins' .221 was shot in the "any centerfire" match at the National Matches at Camp Perry, and was in competition mostly with 38 spl revolvers. He won, and upset many in the process. Nearly everyone then and now shoots 22lr better than CF pistols in precision (Bullseye) pistol competition. CF rules were immediately changed and are now still restricted to 32 cal or larger. I don't how well the .221 shot, but today, no CF pistols used in Bullseye matches can match a great 22lr pistol, which can shoot 0.5" groups at 50yds.

A great story!

Last edited by Pistolman; 03-02-2018 at 03:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-02-2018, 04:14 PM
schutzen-jager's Avatar
schutzen-jager
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2006
Location: 
peoples republic of new jersey
Posts: 
3,868
TPC Rating: 
100% (21)
http://colt22.com/askins.html
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-02-2018, 04:24 PM
Phil in Alabama's Avatar
Phil in Alabama

Join Date: 
Apr 2002
Location: 
world of pain
Posts: 
6,480
TPC Rating: 
100% (7)
Centerfire like the .22 Hornet and 5.7x28 FN can be loaded to approximate the rimfire rounds if one were really interested in trying such. Would be too costly for "plinking" and such, but for hunting and target shooting could be very entertaining to try. Probably best for bolt and single shot rifles as you would not want to lose the cases each time you shot.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-03-2018, 03:45 PM
minuteshaver

Join Date: 
May 2017
Posts: 
425
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
it wouldn't be as hard as you would think.

and in the words of a person I knew who made some funny cartridge conversion "because it can be done"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-03-2018, 05:48 PM
NIB's Avatar
NIB
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Mar 2009
Posts: 
3,410
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
SOME OF...."What You Should Know About .22 Rimfire"

It's articles "like this" that bring about down talk over the 22 rimfire cartridge as the scales are balanced in favor of the American manufacture within this article.

I say this because the article fails to mention at all about the dry prime method which in most cases is far and above a more accurate method to prime a 22 rimfire cartridge in both primer placement and primer quanity. Three European manufactures use this method, Lapua/SK/Wolf, Italian made Fiocchi and Eley. Yes and I guess I have to also mention Aguila for using the "Eley Prime" method although I do this reluctantly as this product comes no where near the quality of the Eley name within the aforementioned process.

And just for the heck of it the article could also draw a line with an arrow pointing to the 'Knife Cut" in the (Rimfire Nomenclature) drawing. Why not show it all as long as they're publishing it? Then again they may not even realize that the line represented in their drawing between the crimp and cannelure is a knife cut.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-03-2018, 07:41 PM
minuteshaver

Join Date: 
May 2017
Posts: 
425
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Well the priming is the big crap shoot on rimfire. If they used the older style of primer compound from the 1960s.. reliability would be superb but penny pinching and all gives us funky consistency.

Im not sure if anyone here has payed attention to the folks that do photographic studies of cross sectioned rimfire cartridges, in the last 20 years of production on non fancy stuff meaning non eley prime, the primer has gone from being a nice playdough coating to being a real thin wash of water based paint.


If anyone reloads there empty rimfire cases using say the 22reloader kit, how do you deal with the crimp left in the case? it doesn't always hold the factory loaded projectile perfectly still, or tight in the case. But after firing its still there.. even with 1280fps stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-18-2018, 08:48 AM
50Shifty
US Army Veteran

Join Date: 
Dec 2014
Posts: 
202
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Does any of you have any experience with the 22TCM, i don't it just looks interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-18-2018, 09:02 AM
nlvmike

Join Date: 
Jan 2015
Posts: 
53
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Yes on the 22TCM. It is interesting, but has a limitation. The cartridge OAL is pretty short, as it has to chamber in the 9mm. It doesn't give you much in the way of bullet options. It is a pretty speedy .22. Kind of like what you get from a 5.7, but the 5.7 has more bullet options and versatility with a longer cartridge. I have seen conversion kits to make a Glock 17/19 into 22TCM, and they load the bullets backwards to get the OAL short enough to cycle. RIA also makes a bolt action rifle for 22TCM. It is cute, but I just don't see the advantage.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-18-2018, 09:03 AM
Cold Bore
US Air Force Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
May 2007
Posts: 
907
TPC Rating: 
97% (31)
Quote:
Originally Posted by minuteshaver View Post

...then why not perhaps say eliminate one and go with a centerfire version that's actually meant to be used in existing guns?
Location of the firing pin makes "existing guns" non-players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by minuteshaver View Post
Cooper tried to make a 22 magnum in a center fire, but it fizzled out for cost reasons and they had the only guns. But does anyone else think that if the time is taken to make a center fire version that works with all existing guns, it can be economical?
Somebody tried it, and found it to be economically unfeasible, but you still ask if it could be done affordably?

Again, how do you propose to make it work in "all existing guns"?

When guys are looking at rimfire prices measured in single digit cents per round, I don't see any way to get anywhere near that with a centerfire version.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-18-2018, 03:01 PM
minuteshaver

Join Date: 
May 2017
Posts: 
425
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cold Bore View Post
Location of the firing pin makes "existing guns" non-players.




Somebody tried it, and found it to be economically unfeasible, but you still ask if it could be done affordably?

Again, how do you propose to make it work in "all existing guns"?

When guys are looking at rimfire prices measured in single digit cents per round, I don't see any way to get anywhere near that with a centerfire version.
I went looking through ammoguide a little bit in the last few days. There are some designs for wildcat cartridges that are actually made by pulling the bullet from a 22lr, and crimping a different bullet in.

Most designs would involve about 400$ in custom forming dies, and most would require about 5-600 to make a gun chambered in that round. Very good....

SO a design for a cartridge that gives custom ability to tune a load, in a popular easy to find chambering, would be wonderful. Considering that at most, your standard CZ 455 would need maybe 100$ to pay a gunsmith to modify the bolt, and it could be done in a way that lets you load standard 22lr and the central fire round in the same magazine, at the same time, and alternate between each with no effort at all to the shooter.

Sure the hard part is the case.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-19-2018, 07:54 AM
Cold Bore
US Air Force Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
May 2007
Posts: 
907
TPC Rating: 
97% (31)
Quote:
Originally Posted by minuteshaver View Post

I went looking through ammoguide a little bit in the last few days. There are some designs for wildcat cartridges that are actually made by pulling the bullet from a 22lr, and crimping a different bullet in.
Yet that doesn't address the rimfire versus centerfire issue at all just by swapping projectiles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minuteshaver View Post

Most designs would involve about 400$ in custom forming dies, and most would require about 5-600 to make a gun chambered in that round. Very good....
So you're at $1000, on top of the cost of the actual rifle, and that is "very good"? A lot of guys shoot rimfires based on cost savings. That is going in the opposite direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minuteshaver View Post

Considering that at most, your standard CZ 455 would need maybe 100$ to pay a gunsmith to modify the bolt, and it could be done in a way that lets you load standard 22lr and the central fire round in the same magazine, at the same time, and alternate between each with no effort at all to the shooter.
Have you actually talked to any gunsmiths about this, to see if they could do the modification, and the price?

I'd be very interested in seeing how they would convert the bolt to shoot both varieties. Yes, the Contender does it, but it uses an external hammer with a lever on it. That's a whole lot different than a bolt action. And how would the shooter or the rifle select between centerfire and rimfire, if the magazine is randomly loaded with both?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-19-2018, 02:16 PM
Phil in Alabama's Avatar
Phil in Alabama

Join Date: 
Apr 2002
Location: 
world of pain
Posts: 
6,480
TPC Rating: 
100% (7)
The only way to do that would require dual firing pins or one with dual tips. Costwise, you would be making something that would no longer be economical, feasible only for people with plenty of money wanting a new toy go play with.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:35 AM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x