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  #46  
Old 05-26-2019, 04:11 PM
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I owned a gunshop 30 years ago & tried to explain that any energy that goes thru an animal is wasted. I has guys insist on 300 mag or 7ll mag for deer & in Michigan about 100 yard is all you get. I bear & dear hunted with a T/C Contender in 45/70 with a 14" barrel.
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  #47  
Old 05-26-2019, 05:12 PM
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Lost energy on the back side! True.

Energy required to ‘deform’ the aerodynamic bullet into a ‘tissue damaging’ bullet can only come from the kinetic energy of the bullet. A sacrifice of energy to get a more effective shape.
This is why Glasser ammo, fragmenting rounds like Quik Shok and shot guns work better than just FPS or energy would indicate. .223 tumbling bullets work the same, too.

(Sorry, I forgot that a #4 was smaller. )
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  #48  
Old 05-26-2019, 06:32 PM
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I owned a gunshop 30 years ago & tried to explain that any energy that goes thru an animal is wasted. I has guys insist on 300 mag or 7ll mag for deer & in Michigan about 100 yard is all you get. I bear & dear hunted with a T/C Contender in 45/70 with a 14" barrel.
I guess I have a different take on that. I like a bullet that passes through and does damage inside and on both sides. Two holes leaves a better blood trail and I've seen the insides of animals that my bullets have passed through and they are pretty much what you would expect- catastrophic damage....

Bob
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  #49  
Old 05-27-2019, 12:20 AM
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Several years ago I read an article in one of the better gun mags concerning this subject. The writer was a trauma surgeon in the emergency room of a downtown Chicago hospital and had years of experience in bullet wounds. He stated that the .22LR HV round is far more effective than most people believe. Based on his long experience he said that the .22's effectiveness was due to the fact that because its relatively slow speed causes it to ricochet when it hits a bone rather than expend all of its energy in one spot. The ricocheting bullet then pierces surrounding soft tissue organs such as liver, spleen, kidneys, etc., causing multiple wounds simultaneously. The .22LR may not knock the assailant down but it sure causes multiple wounds.
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  #50  
Old 05-27-2019, 10:23 AM
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Original concern of original post

I have experience with how easily your ears could be damaged. I am not guessing or parroting internet lore.

This however brings us to the original concern of the person starting this thread.

Any centerfire round, fired in a hall or indoors without hearing protection will most likely severely harm your hearing. Rifle, pistol, shotgun.
Even the .22lr will make your ears ring for days.
The ringing that persists can sometimes sound like the roar of a train.

I guess the real question you need to ask yourself is:

"is firing this round worth ( whatever caliber) going deaf"?

In a life and death situation, the answer is probably yes, and you probably will not be thinking about preserving your hearing.

I pray that you never find out those answers.

Use whatever caliber makes you comfortable. A .22 is fine, if you are more likely to have and use it proficiently.

Good luck

Rich
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  #51  
Old 05-27-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Wahoo57 View Post
Several years ago I read an article in one of the better gun mags concerning this subject. The writer was a trauma surgeon in the emergency room of a downtown Chicago hospital and had years of experience in bullet wounds. He stated that the .22LR HV round is far more effective than most people believe. Based on his long experience he said that the .22's effectiveness was due to the fact that because its relatively slow speed causes it to ricochet when it hits a bone rather than expend all of its energy in one spot. The ricocheting bullet then pierces surrounding soft tissue organs such as liver, spleen, kidneys, etc., causing multiple wounds simultaneously. The .22LR may not knock the assailant down but it sure causes multiple wounds.

All well and good, unless the guy doesn't give up and wants to do some damage. Lethality is one thing, stopping the rascal is something else entirely. I know people who've been shot with .22s that didn't even know it until much later. I also know a former DEA guy who'd been shot with "all the normal cartridges known to man" (I've seen his scars, too). He said "They ALL hurt, some just hurt more than the others". Vests are wonderful things, but he said the .357 hurt him more than the others, though.
It's about STOPPING the malefactor, not killing him, and something bigger will stop the riffraff quicker. I know the DEA guy carried a .45, not a .22.
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  #52  
Old 05-27-2019, 01:09 PM
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I guess I have a different take on that. I like a bullet that passes through and does damage inside and on both sides. Two holes leaves a better blood trail and I've seen the insides of animals that my bullets have passed through and they are pretty much what you would expect- catastrophic damage....

Bob
It's not like bow hunting & the animal bleeding out. It's blunt force trauma that kills with a bullet. I've never shot anything with a 45/70 or 450 Marlin with a 405gr to 700 gr bullet that just didn't fall down dead.
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  #53  
Old 05-27-2019, 01:23 PM
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It's not like bow hunting & the animal bleeding out. It's blunt force trauma that kills with a bullet. I've never shot anything with a 45/70 or 450 Marlin with a 405gr to 700 gr bullet that just didn't fall down dead.
Actually, it is exactly like that. You have to create enough blood flow for the animal to die quickly. If that blood stays inside and pools up in the body cavity and can't find a way out, you will have a tough time tracking.
I know, everybody who shoots deer, bear, and elk they just fall in their tracks and they just go retrieve them where they were shot. Well, I've been doing this for over 50 years now and that isn't really how it works out most of the time so a blood trail is very important to me and most of the guys I know .

A self defense weapon is different in one respect- you aren't going to trail the attacker, you just want to subdue them enough to get away or stop the attack. That takes enough damage to make sure the attacker feels it sufficiently to want to stop attacking or is incapable of continuing the attack... I carry a .45 as my concealed weapon, but no reason a .22 wouldn't work just as well with the right ammo and a well placed shot- emphasis being on well placed shot....

Better a .22 that you carry than a .45 you leave at home...

Bob
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  #54  
Old 05-27-2019, 01:49 PM
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Well I feel safer with a gun than with out one. And I feel safer with a big bullet than a small one. but Letís put the other shoe on. If a bad guy was pointing a 22 pistol at you would you be less afraid than if it was a 45? I donít think so.

So will a 22 do the job, probably. But I like the incremental advantages of a bigger round.
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  #55  
Old 05-27-2019, 02:39 PM
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Well I feel safer with a gun than with out one. And I feel safer with a big bullet than a small one. but Letís put the other shoe on. If a bad guy was pointing a 22 pistol at you would you be less afraid than if it was a 45? I donít think so.

So will a 22 do the job, probably. But I like the incremental advantages of a bigger round.
Yeah that.
IMA the business end of a 22 pistol with Minimags hp IME is loud and the perp will know its not a knife fight he's begun besides how many holes one manages to poke in him.
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  #56  
Old 05-27-2019, 02:45 PM
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Most of us including police dont train enough with a hand gun to be accurate under stress. All kinds of factors involved. Steel challenge shooters probably have the best chance but for the rest of us can get 3 aimed shots off quicker with a 22 than 2 with a center fire in a major caliber. Especially with a light carry gun. I can get 11 aimed rounds off with my G26 fairly quickly but I am faster with the SR22. Even faster with the 15-22 and that usually has 20 rounds or more. I still carry the G26 not a 22. The SR22 is about the same size but thinner and lighter. It would be a big change and require a different mind set.
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  #57  
Old 05-27-2019, 03:02 PM
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I read an article that was on the Ammo Land email that goes out daily a couple days ago. I wish now I had book marked it, but there were some very interesting statistics in the article. One table was the number of confrontations based on the caliber of the gun, which were ended. Not necessarily dead, or incapacitated, but ended. No further action by the perpetrator.

What was interesting, the results across the board were nearly identical. Caliber was not particularly significant. The antagonist was not interested in pushing the attack further. Being shot once was enough to end the attack. Game over. Period.


There other tables were also very interesting in comparing the caliber of the weapon to the situation and the results. The .45 came out on top is several categories, but then the % difference all the way down to mouse guns [ .25, .32, .22] was often not substantial.

Maybe someone else gets the Ammo Land emails as well and also read the article.

VH
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  #58  
Old 05-27-2019, 03:22 PM
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This is a good video that makes a lot of common sense. If you don't want to listen to it start at about 4:41.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv6PxB2TqLM
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  #59  
Old 05-27-2019, 03:50 PM
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Great video, as I said before the perp isn't going to know what caliber you're shooting at him.
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  #60  
Old 05-27-2019, 06:55 PM
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Stuff you may want to know about 22 LR

Little known fact: Every single species of animal that walks the earth has been killed with the 22 LR. Yes, elephants, rhinos and buffaloes! Lions, tigers and bears, oh my! Surprised? I'm not. But then I have been slaying various critters for decades with 22 LR. And I don't mean a few a year. I am prevented from taking larger game animals only by State regulations. But make no mistake about it, a 22 LR (with the right bullet in the right ammo) will kill anything.

That being said, I wouldn't choose a 22 caliber anything to hunt big game, but I don't have to.

As has been said already if you read the whole thread, many people's health restricts them to 22 rimfire handguns. For them I have some advice. We have better bullets today than ever before and the difference in actual killing effectiveness between them is significant. There is no such thing as insufficient penetration of 22 LR rounds in an attacker. Most will go right through and if they don't go right through they do more damage. But if you have to carry a 22 pistol for defense you definitely don't want to use round nose bullets. You want expansion (segmented bullets are another route you can go).

Also be careful because what works great in a rifle may not work in a pistol. You have to test the ammo in your defense pistol for function, feeding and ejection and also expansion after passing through layers of cloth (preferably denim). I've testing so-called defense ammo for decades and many will not expand after passing through a few layers of denim material. And most attackers will be clothed I would think.

There are some hyper-velocity hollow point rounds for 22 LR that hit with devastating damage. Even some subsonic HP rounds do astounding damage. The most killing effectiveness I've ever seen from a Subsonic HP round is with the Winchester 42 Max Subsonic. And they make the same torpedo in a hypersonic round, 1320 fps. They don't lack penetration either. But you need to test whatever you plan to use. In any case, if you can hit center mass with a good 22 LR ammo, you needn't feel undergunned, if you cannot carry a centerfire for defense.

I carry a 9mm with HST Hollowpoints, but if I had the choice between that and my squirrel rifle for home defense, then that is too bad for the home invaders if I happen to have my squirrel/varmint rifle in my hands.
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