CZ 17 Hornet Varmint: Gunsmith says to support barrel for accuracy - RimfireCentral.com Forums

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Old 04-17-2019, 08:43 PM
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CZ 17 Hornet Varmint: Gunsmith says to support barrel for accuracy



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I have a brand new CZ 17 Hornet Varmint. It's shooting 1.25" to 2.25" groups. Place I bought it from has a lifetime warranty on guns, which is why I go there. My CZ 204 varmint and 455 Ultra Lux .22 are very accurate.

Anyway, the old gunsmith there (nice guy) looked at my groups and said, for whatever reason, my gun/barrel needs some support between the barrel and stock, right before the barrel leaves the stock. He says the groups suggest a barrel harmonics issue, and the support will reduce the amplitude of the barrel. In the groups (5 shot), there will be a couple shots close together.

Neither he or I had any 17 Hornet bullets. Just got some in tonight, and will drop off tomorrow.

What say you? I thought sporter barrels often merit such support, but not varmint barrels. Although CZ 527 varmint barrels are not real heavy…
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:11 PM
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Shot mine for the first time today and had similar results. Horrible groups. 20 Grain Hornady Superperformance ammo. Sigh. Beautiful rifle, but another project. I was going to try a torque test first, followed by rubber pressure pads at action and at the end of the forearm. Also a new scope, you know, just in case.
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:29 PM
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Listen to the gunsmith. Free floating is often a solution for bad stock inletting. The Winchester model 70s actually had a screw that went into a knob on the barrel at the midway point.dampning the barrel harmonics can produce excellent accuracy. Plus he likes to do it right where I like to , right at the front where the action climbs out.
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Old 04-17-2019, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flangster View Post
I was going to try a torque test first, followed by rubber pressure pads at action and at the end of the forearm. Also a new scope, you know, just in case.
Torque test? I’m no gunsmith, so I’m guessing you mean making sure the barrel is tight to the receiver? It’s oddly reassuring that someone else out there has a similar problem.

I used both the 20g Hornady and the discontinued Hornady 25g. Same results.

I bought three rifles for this prairie dog trip, and none of them are ready. Started in January. Two brand new Leupold scopes had to be sent back for problems. Picatinny bases machined unsquare. Etc. Sigh.

Last edited by carbonbased; 04-17-2019 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toomany22s View Post
Listen to the gunsmith. Free floating is often a solution for bad stock inletting. The Winchester model 70s actually had a screw that went into a knob on the barrel at the midway point.dampning the barrel harmonics can produce excellent accuracy. Plus he likes to do it right where I like to , right at the front where the action climbs out.
No, I think his gunsmith is suggesting a pressure point at the end of the stock, right before the barrel leaves.
What you are describing with the Winchester, is similar to something that was known as the bughole tuner. Basically, it is a set screw that is inside an escutcheon set into the forearm of a rifle so that it can be screwed onto and upon the barrel.
I do not know if this is made anymore.


EDIT: I read that incorrectly.
T.S.

Last edited by TheShootist; 04-17-2019 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:27 PM
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I'm curious, did he say that without even looking at the rifle?
Anyway that is an easy thing to check, you can cut some foam or rubber into little pads and put them under the barrel at different thicknesses and locations. Its simple to do just takes time. If you don't see the groups tighten up then I would start looking at other things.
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShootist View Post
No, I think his gunsmith is suggesting a pressure point at the end of the stock, right before the barrel leaves.
What you are describing with the Winchester, is similar to something that was known as the bughole tuner. Basically, it is a set screw that is inside an escutcheon set into the forearm of a rifle so that it can be screwed onto and upon the barrel.
I do not know if this is made anymore.


EDIT: I read that incorrectly.
T.S.
No the model 70 barrels actually had a screw hole in them halfway down the barrel there was a big lump in the barrel with a screw hole threaded into it , and yes there was an escutcheon in the stock and a big screw so you could tighten or loosen the barrels fit into the stock.

And yes I read the op incorrectly , he definitely means the muzzle end , which I don’t like to do, because I think it puts torque on the action cause of the lever effect of being so far away.ala Achemides.
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:32 AM
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Glad I got a tack driver in mine, 1/4-1/3 inch groups @ 100 yards with factory ammo are the rule.
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by grg View Post
I'm curious, did he say that without even looking at the rifle?
He did look at the rifle. It’s currently free-floated all the way, from the factory. And he was talking about support right at the end of the forend.

Dropping rounds off today, so we’ll see. Thanks for the input guys. I’ll keep you posted. It’s a little disappointing to have this happen with a CZ, as this sort of thing is why I didn’t go with the 17 Hornet Ruger.
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Old 04-18-2019, 10:34 AM
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Fwiw, general info not specific to your model but has worked for me:
Try a strip of bicycle inner tube (or something firm of about the same thickness)about 1/3 the barrel channel and 1.5" long placed 1.5" back from the tip of the stock. Make sure the amount of free float relief isnt keeping the shim from actually putting up pressure on the barrel. Some rifles require a dbl. up of shim.
Torque the action screws to 20 in.# and try. If not good enough up the screw torque by 2 in.# increments until satisfied. I dont like to go past 28 in.#, at some point more torque is just abusing the thread contacts, especially if it has pillars.
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Old 04-18-2019, 11:42 AM
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As was already mentioned, I'd start with setting the action screws around 20-25in.lbs first and most importantly, use an in.lb torque wrench because you'll be surprised how little force is required to tighten them to that range.

I have two CZ 527 Varmint 17 Hornets, both came from the factory with Gorilla strength torque on the action screws. Also, un- bedded actions are generally more sensitive to action screw torque than those that have the actions fully bed. CZ does kind of a half azzed recoil lug bedding from the factory. I've had some CZ 527's where this factory recoil lug bedding was so bad the barreled action would rock back and forth like a teeter totter because the recoil lug bedding was so poorly done.

If you like the gun and don't mind taking a chance and spending a little money on it, have the action fully bed by a professional and maybe even consider having pillars installed. I have everything bed and always have pillars installed with wood stocks.

Not trying to offend, but if the gunsmith you use is suggesting a pressure point, do yourself a favor and find a different gunsmith. Pressure points can, sometimes, work but they are only a crutch and temporary fix to a different problem. If you are only shooting this a shot here or there and will never build any heat in the gun or barrel, it's possible you could luck out and find a pressure point that'll, maybe, make it shoot better, but it'll only be a temporary fix and as soon as you get any heat in the gun, everything starts changing and it's likely it will shoot worse.

Also, factory ammo is just that, so if you haven't already done so, buy a different box of ammo with a different Lot# and give that a go.

If you plan to reload, give 12-12.2gr of AA1680 w/20gr Vmax a try. That load always seems to shoot pretty well in the CZ 527 17 Hornets.
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Old 04-18-2019, 10:37 PM
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This has got me thinking…my 17 hornet is the one with the factory threaded barrel. For those that have a CZ in this caliber, do you have the regular varmint, the threaded varmint, or the sporter? And how does it shoot?
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Old 04-19-2019, 03:36 AM
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Both of mine are Varmint models and they're threaded, but they didn't come from the factory threaded, that was something I had done by my gunsmith
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Old 04-19-2019, 08:42 AM
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Brother CB, My sporter shoots lights out. On paper at 200yds it appears to be one hole. I thought I was missing target. It was stacking em. Woodchucks tremble when it clears the safe door. Sorry to hear of yours. Good luck
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Old 04-22-2019, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carbonbased View Post
I have a brand new CZ 17 Hornet Varmint. It's shooting 1.25" to 2.25" groups. Place I bought it from has a lifetime warranty on guns, which is why I go there. My CZ 204 varmint and 455 Ultra Lux .22 are very accurate.

Anyway, the old gunsmith there (nice guy) looked at my groups and said, for whatever reason, my gun/barrel needs some support between the barrel and stock, right before the barrel leaves the stock. He says the groups suggest a barrel harmonics issue, and the support will reduce the amplitude of the barrel. In the groups (5 shot), there will be a couple shots close together.

Neither he or I had any 17 Hornet bullets. Just got some in tonight, and will drop off tomorrow.

What say you? I thought sporter barrels often merit such support, but not varmint barrels. Although CZ 527 varmint barrels are not real heavy…
Ironically, I just had someone look at one of my CZs and said the same thing. I found this odd being that I thought the whole purpose of a free float barrel was to keep it off the stock. This gun already shoots pretty well but when I was showing it off to him, he mentioned squeezing some additional accuracy out of it by doing the same thing you’ve mentioned. Had it done on his 452 varmint. Said bike tire inner tube works well. It’s very cheap and harmless to try so I’ll give it a shot this weekend. Pun intended...

My 527 .204 came out of the box at <1/2” accuracy so hadn’t even thought about messing with it. His 527, the same. But I may try it on that just to see what it does.
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